Ok.
This particular conversation should likely stop here.
Getting too close to the back and forth that we used to see.

You are not a Customer to the casino. When you are a winning player, you become a business partner with them. You don't even pay the rake, the fish that they bring to you pay the rake.

While I understand that we would love to have players buy in for more money and pay higher loss rates to us poker entertainers, the market tends to drive that.

It's like if we are performers, sure we would love to fill the venue with only $500 ticket sales, but the reality is we will have to have a varied ticket pricing in order to fill the venue.

I do disagree with you that players come to play to win money. A lot of players come play for a lot of different reasons, and you are projecting your reasons onto those players. Some come to socialize, to gamble, to play a game and winning money is just an after thought. Think of ALL the players who go to a casino to play SLOTS, sure they all would LIKE to win money long term or even in the short term, but it isn't a necessity

I think overall pro players tend to get really good at playing cards, but not at analyzing the different customers that come and pay them their salary

I agree with you that I was projecting my own reasons for playing on to other players. I figured that winning $ could be the only motivation someone would have to even bother playing this game since it becomes such a grind and losing sessions are so tilting. But, I wasn't factoring in all of the recreational players who are playing mainly to get that big adrenaline rush from gambling. Certainly, these players aren't concerned about the rake nor do they care about +EV decisions.

What I can't really empathize with is how in the world losing money could be fun for our customers? Perhaps it's the selective memory of only remembering a rare winning session, or the big pots won, while conveniently forgetting about getting stacked and going home broke.

Couldn't disagree more. Saying winning money is an afterthought is accurate for maybe .02% of people in the poker room. The majority of people in a poker room are there because they think they are better than the guy sitting next to them and believe that advantage translates to money. Slots is a bad comparison because it doesn't reflect human nature the same way poker does which I think has a huge impact on a players incentive to play each game.

The whole "customer" concept of recs in a poker room might have been more accurate years ago but nowadays I just dont see it, at least in the rooms I have played in. The whole "customer" concept is what makes regs go out of their way to do the cringiest, most patronizing things to recs that are hard to watch and more importantly hurt the game because recs see right through it.

The sooner people stop referring to recs as customers and treating them as if they need to be entertained with the most insincere behavior the better off everyone will be. Being competitive, genuine, and friendly is what matters most.

Hey guys,

I am a new member at 2+2 and I just need some advice. In 2014 I started playing live NLHE in Alberta, Canada. I build my bankroll from 2k to 65k in one year, and lost it all playing Baccarat (like an idiot, I know). At that point I didn't have a job and was playing pro so I ended up moving to Los Angeles. I got a job in May 2015, and began playing low stakes 1/2 NLHE at a local casino to try to get back in the groove. After building my bankroll to 10k I took a shot at 500-1500 NLHE at Commerce Casino and blew my entire bankroll in about 4 sessions. Feeling defeated, I decided to stop playing entirely. I've lost a significant amount of money since May 2016 trying to rebuild my bankroll and I think it's because I am still chasing past losses. How much should I save before taking another stab? Any bankroll management tips? Ways to refrain from degeneracy?

Thanks. Sorry for the long post.

@7weeks2days

You seem to be unable to objectively view situations from perspectives that are not your own. I understand why you can't seem to fathom why others would not care about money as you aren't rich (and nor am I). To those who are, money is not a factor in many of the decisions they make.

I won't continue on this conversation though because it's getting into derail zone

Based on your past degeneracy / taking shots at too high of limits with too lol BR / etc., you should probably simply do you best to stay away from casinos altogether and never play poker again.

Gyouasked,you'rewelcome,goodluckG

ultimately, it sounds like you know what you're doing wrong - pit games and playing WAY higher than your BR - so really it's just on you to figure out how to not do those things. there is no secret. there is not magic tips. you just need self control.

as far as BR before starting again, if you have a job, you could probably start playing 1/2 when you have a spare BI around. if you lose it, wait until you save up another. if you're good eventually you will win a few sessions in a row and you should be able to go from there. once you start winning and are still working, if you can supplement you BR with job earnings, that would help too. just obv make sure you save enough to live off of

Thanks for the tips, @johnny_on_the_spot I'm so happy I joined the forum! Just need some support.

I love action, I won't deny that. But I just need to train myself to have discipline I think. I am going to start to bring a third party friend as an observer to help me keep in check, and leave when I should. Just to gain a little bit of control before I go out on my own again.

Leopard / spots, imo, but good luck.

Gwouldn'trecommendarecoveringalcoholichangoutatthe barG

I agree with GG for once.

If you're actually so bad that you need another person to babysit you in the casino, you need to move on to other things in life. You're going to inevitably end up broke and miserable more than likely. Stay away from the degen life

Sounds like disaster waiting to happen...

Plus if spotter is a friend, you might put that friendship in jeopardy when you go on losing tilt.

I'm a serious rec player who plays deep stack 1/2 (plays more like 2/5) once or twice a week. I obviously want to win but the money isn't really material to me one way or the other. I play to have a good time. If I wanted to make money I'd work. If you think that most of the people you play with are there to actually make money, you don't really understand their motivations.

My honest advice follows, I think there is no chance you will follow this but maybe you'll think about it when you hit rock bottom:

You have a nasty gambling addiction and should seek help for that problem. Going pro is the last thing you should do, it's about as smart as an alcoholic getting a job bartending. Get a real job instead.

I'd say at least half the people at the table act as though they think exactly this. But some people, who I suspect are a minority but not 1 in 5000, clearly don't care and just like splashing around.

Lots and lots of higher stake players would play lower stake without winning as main motivation.

You have to create a baseline in order to objectively determine luck. For instance, I would much sooner agree with the statement "we are unlucky for living in a society where poker is available in casinos that will rake you, with little exception", than I would with the statement, "we are lucky to be getting raked as we are". This is especially true because the results of significantly increasing the rake are unknown. Does anyone think the casinos haven't considered increasing the rake or replacing the poker room with slot machines before?

Welp, it isn't on a note that I'd like, but I've reached 1,000 hours of poker.

I've been faltering a bit lately, letting a slow run of cards affect my play. Time to refocus and finish the year strong.

It's mostly 1/3 at a single 8 table room in the midwest. There is a bit of 1/2 (vegas, local charity room), one random session of 2/5 and about 6 hours of plo.


I've played 954 hours at my home (local) room averaging just over 10 BB/hr.

If you're wondering why I have the results filtered, it's because I have a bbj table share that I didn't want to include.

nice results, ive been wanting to share mine but ive just only surpassed 400h, want to at least hit 500h

There absolutely is a very good chance I'm way off here. I just recently started playing poker often in a big poker market but based off what I have seen so far I still feel Like I'm not too far out of touch. This opinion is based off of 5/5 500 cap and 5/10. I don't get how you can be a serious Rec player and not let it be about the money. If serious-> want to win-> winning translates to money. Even if you don't care about the money, you do care about winning. By no means are you going to the casino to lose 30k with a smile on your face while some obnoxiopus reg follows you around trying to be clever and pretend to want to gamble with you. Since most recs do care about winning, I feel it isn't becoming of regs to treat recs like customers in the patronizing way that they do because few are there to lose money in a poker room. I'm probably biased because I haven't had much experience at resort/casinos just mainly poker rooms but still.

Are you a winning player? Most people don't enjoy losing. Most people like activities that they can prove their perceived or real superiority. If you ask players to rank themselves among their table from best to worst I'm sure most wouldn't rank themselves towards the bottom. Not a coincidence.

Very nice results, congrats!

I had very similar results over my first 1000 hours of 1/3 NL at 9.65 bb/hr. Maintained about the same rate over the second 1000 hours at 9.24 bb/hr. Then the bottom fell out on the third 1000 hours at 4.58 bb/hr.

Ghopeyouareabletomaintainyourpace!G

I've won and am certainly up lifetime though no idea how much is run good.

I agree everyone wants to feel like a winner and like they are good at poker. However that's different than playing for money. At the stakes I play at (1/2 deep stack games in NYC clubs and 2/5 at the casino) I'm never going to make or lose enough in the 300 or so hours I'll play in a year to make a meaningful difference in my lifestyle. I suspect that a lot of people you play with or want to play with feel similarly.

You're still over-simplifying it.

Yes, rec players obviously prefer winning > losing. Yes, they would like getting money > losing money. But to suggest that they walk into the casino with the intention of making money each day is false, they are smart people -- they understand they are there to gamble. Now, if you told them they are guaranteed to lose, they would not come back. It's just like playing slots to them, they realize its more likely to lose than win, but the thrill of winning and the fun of the atmosphere is more than sufficient for them to keep coming back

And to MIB's point, the money being played for is insignificant to effect their life style (which is the main point). Those who are not rich and who's lives are actually effected by the money being won lost (e.g. purchase decisions) will obviously have a much different view on the game more often than not. But the majority of consistent rec players in mid stakes games are well off.