Quote:
Originally Posted by aoFrantic
I haven't seen an argument of playing short rather then deep if you're competent.
I don't think anyone is arguing that you should play a short stack. Different strokes for different folks. It's pretty much widely accepted on these forums that playing deep is optimal. That being said, I don't know many players that can play optimally.
You used the word "competent" which is a word that is thrown around a lot on these forums but is completely subjective. What is competent? I consider the vast majority of players that I play with at 2/5 and 5/10 to be competent...yet the vast majority of them are terrible. At the casino I play at there are literally just a handful of players out hundreds of 2/5 players that can play deep stacked really well. Most decent players essentially nut peddle when they are deep and that's ok, but it's certainly not optimal. Just because you can play deep doesn't mean that you can play it optimally and just because you have a really good short game doesn't mean you can play a good deep stacked game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aoFrantic
I play in really tough games and anyone who can play a competent shortstack is bringing 4+ bullets to 2/5 or 5/10 so they don't have to play with 20-50bb.
When I first started playing for a living back in 2011 one thing I noticed is that many grinders game select looking for big stacks. I was playing LAG full stack $500 and what I discovered is that if I grew my stack to $1000-$1500+ grinders would actually game select me (table changing and seat changing). Is it necessarily in the best interest of a young grinder to play deep stacked against players with more deep stack experience?
One positive about short stacking is that stack depths aren't as important. For instance, I would buy in for 60bbs (not truly short stack, but as short as was offered) and if I'm choosing between three different 2/5 tables, more than likely all three will have at least 6 or 7 players that cover me. It was not unusual for me to observe 4 grinders at one table because the table was deep with a whale or two on it, leaving me to choose between 2 tables full of fish. You can't tell me that the expected hourly for a bunch of grinders trying to nut peddle on an overall tough table is going to be higher than me playing tons of pots in position with initiative vs a bunch of rec-fish. Whether these fish were tight or loose didn't really matter to me because if the table was nitty I would just run it over. I could play lag very well at 60bbs. Any mistakes that I might have made were minimized due to stack depth. At 200bbs I was a huge spew monkey.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aoFrantic
I'm not scared of the shortstack who might put me to one tough decision for one, MAYBE two streets for at most 50bb. These are rarely ever good players and you're rarely making huge errors here anyway. The tricky player who can put you to tough decisions for 200+bb over three streets? That's the player that is going to "destroy you." The shortstack who squeezes you twice a night is not doing this. On a list of the players who can exploit you, the shortstack is really the least of your worries.
One of my closest poker friends is a 2/5 crusher that puts in marathon sessions. By crusher, I mean on a normal weekend he will have $3k+ in front of him ($500 max buy-in game). Anyone that plays at this casino that sees a 2/5 stack of $9k in front of an empty chair will automatically assume it's his seat. He's been playing crushing deep stack poker for over a decade, you honestly think he cares if you or I sit at his table deep if he has an edge? Absolutely not.
The thing you need to understand (you probably already do) is that deep stacked poker is all about postflop play. Short stacked poker is more about preflop play. Ideally a deep stacked player wants to play in as many pots as possible with the deep stacked fish. A good short stacker can severely handcuff a good deep stack player from playing his game. For instance, if I'm on the deep stackers right and I'm raising pre the deep stacker isn't getting good implied odds to call and if he raises all he is doing is isolating the good short stacker and pushing all the deep fish out of the pot. If I'm on his left then he has to tighten up his preflop range too because if he doesn't then scenarios like this happens: He raises, gets 2 callers, I raise/ship because I'm ahead of his raising range and there is lots of dead money out there.