Just play on your own, and pray you don't get doomswitched.

save up 6k, then only play on good times when youre happy and not upset. Like fri/sat night

+eleventy

I was able to take $300 and grind it up to $14K in two years of playing $1/2 and $1/3. And my winrate was terrible for the first 1.5 years. It has really picked up the last 6 months as I gained experience and confidence from learning from my mistakes and having a bigger BR.

If you are smart and emotionally stable, you can succeede at small stakes.

Hi Everyone, I have been playing poker for 7 years and just turned 22(not much significance there lol). I have been really profitable live but for some reason cant online. I think i get bored of playing online and rather do other things on my computer so i lose focus. Anyways, i have a bankroll of anywhere 5-10k and will strictly play cash ( because tournament variance is to high). The questions i have is,

1. How much on average does a 2-5 or 5-10 player make a month playing LIVE NLH?

2. Is it stressful playing these limits for a living?

3. Any advice or thoughts for a young kid like me with good results for the past few years and living at home with almost no commitments.

I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM PLAYERS WHO DO THIS FOR A LIVING OR WHO HAVE LIVED THIS LIFESTYLE IN THE PAST.

Thanks to all,

BWEEZY90

I think you need a larger bankroll as well as a solid number not anywhere between the former and double itself.

Are you currently beating 2/5 and 5/10 live at casinos or are you beating home games and 1/2 casino.

Your lack of winning online could be multiple reasons, lack of attention is something you will need to work on because grinding tables live can get monotonous if you're folding correctly.

Where do you live and where would you be playing 2/5 or 5/10? (this is important)

My advice, take your time, explore your options and live life the way you want to live it while you have no commitments because it gets much more difficult later on.

1. Depends on where you play, the rake, games, and of course your ability which has a big part in your winrate. But generally over the course of a year numbers are $25/hr for 2/5 and $35/hr for 5/10.

2. This is a question you must answer. If you are rolled for the game and know you are the best player in the game, have been doing it for awhile and don't have many responsibilities then probably not too stressful.
If you have a family of 4 to support and a limited bankroll then it'll probably be a lot more stressful.

3. Stay living at home for as long as you can and keep expenses low. Keep a good social life and do stuff outside of poker. Enjoy your youth. Study the game diligently and play 5/10 and try to build a big roll.

And know there are different leaks for different games. IME at the lower limits most of the leaks you see and take advantage of are PF hand selection and position mistakes, villains who call to much yet fail to value bet anything, villains who overplay their hands in a way where they make the minimum and lose the maximum with their TPs and overpairs. People just playing fit or fold poker and playing too many hands oop.

At 5/10 the leaks I see most are(besides the ones above that also carry over), c betting precision, failure to double and triple barrel correctly, peeling flops too wide only to fold on later streets, not b/fing correctly(either not enough or too much), not value betting enough, people play very unbalanced ranges, and the biggest thing is that almost NO ONE bluff raises the river ever. This last one is what allows me to make the most money. The fish allow me to value bet them with impunity and I never fear a bluff raise on the river.

River value bets make such a huge difference in your win rate ainec.
There's a ton more stuff I could go on and on about, but that's the nuts and bolts of it from my perspective coming up.

Where are you playing btw?

with your br you shouldnt play any higher than 1/2

Before we answer could you be very specific with exactly what you play live, where, and for how long. Game (NL, limit, stud, etc), what limits your play, etc.

If you have been crushing your family's 25cent home game or an underground game in your friend's place for the past year that is one thing.

If you have been beating 1/2nl live at your local casino that is another.

And how long do you typical play, hours per session, and approximate # of live sessions in the last year. If you had to guess, in the last year how many hours have you played?

Similarly, have you been tracking your play using a bankroll tracker (free one like www.pokerdominator.com )


What poker books have you read and do you have pokerstove or any poker software?

And when you played online, what did you play online, what did you load onto your account and how long did it last before you went busto?

And, yes, I'm a 2/5nl and 5/10nl grinder who supports himself with poker...

To all the BR nits, yeah generally you're correct and that's perfectly sound advice if you want to go that direction.
My take on it though is: he's young and lives at home with his parents.

I say shot take at 5-10. You still have ten 100bb BIs w/ 10k. If you are good and lucky you can run that up. That is if you're relatively ok with going busto.

You have the rest of your life to be a miserable nit grinding 1/2 on their leather a$$.

LAMBO:

1-2 is pretty low for the bankroll i have for "LIVE" play. It's a lot harder to lose 10 buy-ins in the casino compared to online because of less focus and more H/Hour.
I think 2-5 is a good place to start and if i lose 3 buy-ins i could always drop down and come back. I also am working a job making anywhere from 1500-3000 a month.

All the more reason to shot take. Your BR is not a fixed BR, it is a replenishable one which is a huge difference.

Great advice!

I live about an hour away from the casino. I have played 2-5 over there and notice its pretty easy. opponents either are to tight or to loose and cant value bet accordingly. I play a wide range of hands and for that reason am known as a loose/agro player. But i actually balance my range pretty well. I am also making 1500-3000 a month from my fulltime job at the moment. So i have a backup source of income encase everything fails. I am looking to get into it gradually but want to move up limits as fast as possible. I wont be a 2-5 or 5-10 my whole life.

As much as I do agree, bankroll management is too important for someone looking to make a career out of poker and if he starts this foot it is likely he will repeat this at some point in his career and dump more than he should (too expensive a lesson imo)

Being an hour away is awesome, are 2/5 games a normal over there, are there multiple tables running or can you find yourself stuck at a nit party?

Hi there,

Great advice!

I live about an hour away from the casino. I have played 2-5 over there and notice its pretty easy. opponents either are to tight or to loose and cant value bet accordingly. I play a wide range of hands and for that reason am known as a loose/agro player. But i actually balance my range pretty well. I am also making 1500-3000 a month from my fulltime job at the moment. So i have a backup source of income encase everything fails. I am looking to get into it gradually but want to move up limits as fast as possible. I wont be a 2-5 or 5-10 my whole life(not offense, but i want more).

Well live 2-5 in the casino in the past 6 months about 200+ hours, but 1-2 and tournaments over 500 hours.

But i played online on doyles room and turned 50$ into 1,000$ several times only to lose it all in higher stakes due to lack of proper bankroll.

I only play NL HOLDEM

I play low & mid stakes to make money, and I'm older than you, maybe my answers can help...

1) How much money can you make playing low stakes live?

The truth is the range is very wide; it ranges between going broke quickly, playing for several months or maybe a year or more before you get burned out and decided to quit, as an educated and *honest* estimate the better low stakes players make $30-50k per year...working thier azz off. An *honest* long term win rate for a really good $2/5 player would be in the $40 per hour range, around 8 big blinds per hour. .....$25 to $30 per hour / 5-7 big blinds per hour win rate is more common.

2) Is gambooling for a living stressful?

Yup, you dam right it is!

Not knowing for sure if you'll win and if so how much, and always having some doubt in your mind is stressfull. A large bankroll really helps....it adds security, take many of the doubts away, and allows you to play "your" game more ...versus scared-money play.

Playing poker to make money is a business, make no mistake. Just as any other small business you need to make wise and prudent business choices to succeed.
In one word *discipline* is what it takes. You have to have solid work ethic and play lot of hours, you have to have excellent bank roll managment skills, bugeting skills, and you have to a pretty good poker player.
Very, very few people in ther world become and continue the life of a poker player for ever...thats not to say it can't be a fun and rewarding experience to do for awhile.

3) General advice for a young guy who has a little money, ambition, little commitments and likes to play cards?

Make a "fall back" plan at your current home and life situation, a plan that if/when you go broke or change your mind you can go back to where you came from with only some bruised pride, less money, and a small chunk of time used in your life.

Move to Las Vegas and chase your dream!

Best wishes.....

If you plan on playing in California, you've got quite some competition even at the low levels. Still beatable, but variance will be high. In addition, get used to railbirds asking for $20 everytime you use the bathroom. Your new "friends" and players will become a part of your life if you spend over a year in one of those places, whether you like it or not. Drugs are readily available and it's an overall sleazy environment that becomes absolutely normal to you. You'll start hearing of stories of "cowboy sam" and his take of over $50,000 playing 30-60 for three days straight. you'll start seeing the loansharks on the rail looking for big winners that owe them money. Most people love sharing their bad beat stories or their no-luck stories so get used to that. In a 2-5 nl game, a really good player can expect to make $1000-$2000 net per week. I played 6-12 limit and 15-30 limit all over california for about 3 years and I'd say I was making 30k a year after all the tipping and buying meals and drinks. I sure wasn't happy most of the time. If I had a big winning session, we took comped trips to vegas and splurged at the pit or the nightclubs. My biggest score was a $12,000 night playing 30-60 limit and Cal Black jack over 24hours. It was gone in less than a week playing too many high NL games and gambling in the pits. That's a common life of a poker player. Your normal friends will think it's cool and that perhaps you're some math genius. I just tell them its mostly gambling. They wont understand nor do they care about the intricacies about the game. I enjoy it much more now that I have a day job and I only play 2-3 times a week.

Focus primarily on your first career, education, college, tech schooling whatever. Then add the poker. You are 22 and you will be 32 before you know it. Too late to go back to school (or you simply just wont do it).

Preparing for the future is something young guys never want to really concentrate on, but i can tell you it is vital and not doing it can cause a life of issues. (and none of them are good) I already know about 8 guys who 20 yrs ago were young energetic and smart winning players. They each had life by the ballz. Laughed daily at stiffs who worked for a living. Games change, times change, desires change and now they were left in the dust, lost in the confusion. Each committed suicide while the stiffs they laughed at have families, homes, lives.

I know its not he answer you wanted but its like Tommy Angelos coaching. Its what you need to hear whether you like it or not.

Dont let that be you.

Of course you want to move up as quickly as possible. You are 22yrs old... You want what you want when you want it and if anyone tells you different then they can go eat a d**k...

Take a step back. Breath. Relax.

If you are crushing 2/5nl for $45/hr playing 40hrs per week, then you are making roughly $90k per year. Man, that sucks huh? Life is rough when you are 22yrs old and bank $90k in a year....

But there is more to staying at 2/5nl than building that bankroll. You want to use that limit to LEARN all the advance poker and various aspects of poker as you can. You want to try different things out to get a understanding of how all the various aspects of poker impact your game and then integrate all those aspects into your game...

Why is the above important?

Simple, the key difference between 2/5nl vs 5/10nl and upwards is that there are no more clueless donks and fish. You are now playing with players that not only know what they are doing, but they are all Level II, III, and even a few Level IV players that are capable of adjusting and exploiting you.

At 2/5nl you can be a winning player with correct Level II ABC poker and some TAG.

However, in order to be a winning player at 5/10nl+, you have to have all the tools in your toolkit as well as be the best or 2nd best player at the table every single time you sit down...

okay, i'm starting to write a book.

I'll just end with this. If you don't have the patience to grind out some 2/5nl, CRUSH the game, build a decent roll so you can play 5/10nl without having to worry about dropping a few buy-ins then I don't see you doing well longterm.

If you truly are crushing the game, THEN EVERYTHING WILL TAKE CARE OF ITSELF. You'll have a monster roll in no time and there will be no need to "take shots"

read the bazillion articles and hardluck stories with Bankroll Management and why its so important.

Why go busto when you don't have to? Like I said, if you are crushing 2/5nl then you can make $90k a year. Is that really so bad??? Why would you put that at risk? Just because you can't wait a few months and grind up a proper roll??? Really????

Thought I'd commenet on this, ANL is 100% right.

Imo, poker should be part time. You will know when you should go pro when you get to the point where you make double your salary with poker. And I don't mean over the period of a couple of months. I'm talking like over a period of years.

Let all this happen organically. Poker will always be there, education, schooling, and having an actual career will not be...

Some great advice in this thread.

I'll give my 2 cents, as I'm a youngster as well (23 years old).

Do not quit your job to play poker. Poker will always be there. A job/career is never guaranteed.
In all seriousness, you have no idea if you're a winner yet. Sure, you've been 'crushing' for 200 hours. But you'll soon be introduced to something called variance.

Last year, I was a senior in college. I lived 12 minutes from a very large casino. I played approximately 15-20 hours a week, for a total of about 500 hours, for a total of about $18,000. My hourly was roughly $35/hr (mostly at $2/5 NL $800 max buy in)

I can remember at least two months of break-even / slightly losing poker. Yes, two months. That's pretty much your whole career. You haven't been playing for 7 years-- you have nothing more than 200 hours of experience under your belt. I apologize if I'm being harsh, but I want you to understand the reality.

You simply do not have the bankroll to even consider supporting yourself with poker. Sure, guys like dgiharris play for a living, but he probably has a very, VERY large bankroll to support himself with. I'm also pretty sure that he's at least over the age of 30. He made the decision to play for a living at a fairly mature age (whatever that age was).

You're young. You don't want to spend the rest of your life in a casino, trust me. There will come a point where you will look around and wonder, 'what the **** am I doing sitting next to moron Max and smelly Joe?'

You should really try to develop a career for yourself. Play poker on the side. Have fun with it. Make crazy plays that only a young person playing with monopoly money could make. You'd be surprised how advantageous it is to play 'recreationally'. You have the power to be the most aggressive player at the table. All the 50 year old bums grinding out their next free buffet ticket will have no idea how to play back at you.

10 years from now, if you're still crushing the game, and you hate your career, then maybe consider making the switch. But at this age, with the potential to do so many other great things with your life, why let poker become all-consuming? Keep it as a hobby. You're lucky to have a hobby that happens to put some extra coin in your pocket!

I'm a 22 yr old full-time student who, at the beginning of this year, quit his full-time job to pursue playing 2/5 full-time. I did it primarily to allow me more time to focus on school as working 40 hrs, going to school, and playing poker left me no time for a life and my grades were slipping. I was also living at home when I decided to do this, but moved out about a month ago.

I made sure to build up a 20k bankroll before I left my job: 10k for poker and 10k for life. I am very, very glad I did. Dealing with downswings is so much easier when you really don't have to worry about being broke and just focusing on playing well everyday. There's no point to living with the freedom of playing poker if you're stressed out all the time and it's definitely -EV tohow thinking about it at the table. I have at least 10k set aside for poker at all times (usually 15k).

I also made sure to have 500 hours logged at 2/5 to make sure my hourly rates were accurate so I can make projections for my lifestyle. I was making about $60/hr and it has dropped by about $10/hr in the 500 hrs since it became my sole source of living. I've heard this is quite common due to playing in not so ideal games, so you should account for that as well. I've been averaging about $4-5k a month playing 3-4 days a week with a high month of just under $10k and a low month of $1500, so no negative months as of yet.

If you're planning on moving out, then I would suggest paying off rent months in advance. I paid 4 months up front so I don't have to worry about it every month. If you're going to pay for it anyway, then you might as well do it now and not stress later. This has been one of the smarter ideas I've had in regards to money management.

I would say a 5-10k bankroll is way too small for anything other than 1/2. One should expect at $5k downswing at 2/5 at least once a year, so if you start of running bad, then you have to start all over again.

I would suggest being patient and building a bigger bankroll. Waiting a couple months could save you a lot of stress in the future.

The school thing.... I don't agree fully with your statement. It's not the same for everyone and schools now a day make it easier to get/finish a degree. I am 31 now and have more of an appetite now to get something done. On the flip side though I wish I would of done it when I was 21 or w/e. It would of been done already. But hey, with age comes wisdom. I suggest getting school now because you won't have to worry about it in the future, but I don't agree that when you are 32 you won't have the drive or passion to get schooling done.

The rest of what ANL said is g2g.

see bold

On the education vs. taking a poker shot thing - no reason you can't do both if you are reasonably rolled. Keep your ed cost low. Go to community college, get your gen ed classes out of the way and keep your grades up (3.5+).

So + EV vs. running to college for someone who isn't sure of what they want to do with their life.