This is a question for live pros. If, for example, you can beat 50NL online for 2bb/100, can you beat like 5/10 live? If so, what do you need to adapt?

Not a live pro, but I play both online and live. It's not that simple....

that said, live is much weaker than comparable stakes online. IMO, if you are rolled, any online micro winner can beat 1/2 and 2/5 live, if he can adjust to the lack of FE live

get coached by me.

If I lived anywhere near you...or ICLD.

1/2 Live can probably be beaten by most winning 25NL & 50NL online regulars.

2/5 Live can probably be beaten by most winning 50NL and 100NL online regulars.

5/10 Live can probably be beaten by most SSNL & MSNL regulars

10/20 Live can probably be beaten by most MSNL regulars.

The jumps between 1/2, 2/5 & 5/10 live are very insignificant in comparison to the jumps between SSNL, MSNL online.

the biggest problem with this question is that it is apples and oranges.

There are physical factors involved in live play that "can" be a problem for some online players.

#1 the pace is SUPER SLOWWWWWWW
#2 physical tells
#3 physical stress (OMG i'm breathing heavy, does he know i'm bluffing??? etc)
#4 completely different player population (some of those online moves don't work in live games)

anyways, there are a lot of threads on here about this subject. Search is your friend.

in a nutshell, I believe yes, a decent online player can crush live PROVIDED that they can adjust to live play. Truth be told, a lot of online players simply cannot adjust to live play. They really have difficulties playing vs villains that are terribad.

Sounds stupid, I know. But, it is what it is. Too many online players simply can't adjust and they try to force the live game to conform to their online style and it just doesn't work that way...

goodluck

If you can beat 50NL you can beat up to 10/20NL live. I was break even at 50NL when I quit online and I'm currently playing and beating 5/10. Some 5/10 regs are very good, but a 5/10 fish is the same as a 1/2 fish except they have more money. As long as you don't sit with a table full of young internet guys, even at 25NL player can beat 5/10.

any winning online player can beat 1/2, 1/3 and 2/5 live if he just adheres to and repeats the following mantra: "Nobody ever folds. EVER."

So C-Bet less for FE and more for value....

Sarge

I havent beaten any online level, however I do really well 1/2, 2/5 live. I think its a matter of the person and how they adapt to the enviroment more than what level they beat online vs live. The same theory says I should be able to be winning 2nl online. I just dont do well, Im very spewy online. Good luck sir

This.

If you can beat 50NL for 2-3 BBs/100 you can be at least a small winner at 5-10 easily imo given a decent bankroll.

Online play is a m........f........er. Even most fish at 100nl could hold their own in a 2/5 live game.

And even at live poker ...when most avg players dont have what they call "producers" (players who just gamble and make huge bad calls etc) then you gotta play like a sumbitch to garner a nice edge above andbeyond all that rake+tokes+tips+floorman handoffs+drinks at the bar+mssg+whatever.


Its kinda funny. The real old school live pros wont even sit unless there are"fish" businessmen in the game etc. Hell, they dont play online for the simple reason that many times you look around online and every single player is a winner overall. They just won at lower limits and now are trying out the higher limit
game where they now become the fish at that limit. But ur still trying to gainanedge on a guy who has a winning history at poker, even though smaller stakes.

Lol I think you are being too nice I think 300nl live plays much worse than 10nl online, and probably a little worse than 5nl really

I agree about the weakness of the live fields, really at almost every limit.
A lot of the time you are looking at play money skill level, literally.

If it means that any good online player CAN beat it, it doesn't mean that they WILL>
if they don't make the proper adjustments, which are huge adjustments to make, they are toast.

The WPT was just in town this week, and there were heaps of euro fulltilt qualifiers in the cash games.
It was almost comic how they played right into the hands of the bad passive donkish players.
calling them down light, betting thin value into them. firing barrels w. air into stations. dumping buy-in after buy-in.
anyways, it was profitable being stuck in the middle of them.

being willing to dumb yourself down is crucial for a knowlegable player in a live setting, otherwise you just end up outplaying yourself, and in retrospect, you realize that you were just trying to be smart, and not trying to get the $.
I've done it endless times, and still do.
I see it very often from players who are 'trying', and caring a little too much.

For some reason, I cannot stand how slow live poker is and I start spewing with ****ty hands.

Not to start a live vs. online war but what do you mean by this? There are still fish online and huge winners at 50NL and up know how to exploit them. Everyone knows you cant bluff a fish off a hand..

As a mostly online player, just interested in what do you mean by adjustments? If you havent played 50NL, 100NL most regs can read hands really easily imo

don't float OOP, and a few other things. (isolating, squeezing light from t blinds,)
a lot of standard plays OL, are total FPS in live games in general,
and not just against the 'fish'.
don't underestimate the bad live players, they may have good instincts,
and, although they suck at poker, they can be dangerous.
they don't really hand read, so much as tell you "I put you on that" when you flip up your cards. ( even though they called you, and you have the nuts)
a lot of concepts, and tools, you may take for granted, like ranges,
don't exist for these villians; it can be kinda hard to grasp that they are just not capable of thinking that way, when you are so used to it; so a lot of bad things can happen if you go with your normal assumptions about how villians will react to what you are repping, or the range you actually have.
they are just downright unpredictable.
hard to get them off the bottom of their range, if they don't know that they are at the bottom of their range, and what range you are supposed to have
w/ the given action.
they also don't respect the board, or realize when it pegs your range.

the obv solution is to figure out how to exploit thier tendancies, and not play into them; which is actually fairly simple to do.
It's more about discilpline, solid fundementals, and value towning.
if you can't stay disciplined, i don't care how good you are, you are going to lose to players who are way worse than you.

I've seen OL players inexperienced in live play just be shocked to see the gifts live regs can give, and the level of stupidity.
"he really paid that off w/ 2 pair??"
so also, don't underestimate their ability to pay off.
when this sinks in, how much value is available, all the fancy plays just seem like a waste of time.
but ya, Live poker is a boring job.
bring i pod, take a lot of breaks to fight off the monotony.

Stampler has nailed most of the problems OL players have with live. They relate to not being able to play any other way than the way they normally play OL.

Three other factors I see.

1. Impatience. When you're 15 tabling, you can easily go 2 minutes folding every hand. In live play, that means folding for an hour or more. Society has conditioned younger people to receive nearly constant stimulation to enjoy an activity, whether it is a movie or video game. I see many OL players get frustrated and start making moves, which end in disaster often.

2. Use of electronic aids. I know Stampler is arguing that HUDs are bad in the long run for poker players to rely on. Actually agree with him (although micro on-line players tend to only have one speed of play, so a HUD has some value). Live, they don't exist. That means you have to do the work in your head. Again, today's society discourages doing such activities solely with your mind. Yes, young people learn how to add 3-4 numbers together, but with a calculator, they never practice that skill so they can't do it a couple of years later. While taking notes is great, you can't stop a hand in the middle and look up what you wrote about the player in seat 6.

3. Ear buds. I never listen to music when playing. At least a couple of times in a session, some players will start talking about a hand that just got played, especially if someone got felted and left. You'll never hear that discussion, so you'll never know that the player is seat 8 is going to fold a set on the river with 3 spades on the board. Quite frankly, if you're bored at a live table, it is because you aren't focused enough on the game.

Cool post Venice, since this might be part of the answer as to why a majority of the online pros do not (apparently) consider moving to Vegas and LA to play live poker, even though the competition is like 1 on a 10 scale compared to online. The sheer physicalness of it, mental, patience, etc is most likely a huge deterrent to the multi-tasking mindset of the YIPs today.

And its a good thing too, cause all it takes is a couple of pretty high level players to drop into say a routine 5/10 game to about ruin it for the local grinders. At 25 hands an hour etc, plus rake+tips, the local grinder cannot afford to have any gashes at all rip into their pipeline.

Im much better live and Ive beaten up to 5/10 NL online. The reads you get by being a well disciplined live pro (if you use them) are tremendous. Just dont sit there and tune out to an ipod or watch TV. Study your opponenets and look for certain specific tells (mostly flop related) to really get an edge. You dont need a hand if youre quite certain the weak tight player missed the flop.

There is no regular player at the 1-2 that remotely freightens me (there are a couple I respect because they have a clue) theres a few regulars in the 2-5 that are decent. Generally even the regulars in 1-2 and 2-5 arent that good and even they beat the fish. Its just a matter of picking the right moments against different opponents.

For example, I raised AQ against a fish with 150 in front of him he called 11 OOP. Flop Q high with 2 clubs. he checks I bet 27, he calls. river bricks off. He checks I set him in. He states " I know you have me beat but I have to call with top pair" He calls with KQ and river bricks and I stack him. He reloads for 200.

Other example. Old nitty rock limps UTG, 2 limpers follow, I raise to 17 OTB with AKs, SB weak playing female calls, UTG rock calls, rest fold. Flop K high rags. check, check , I lead for 27, SB folds, rock calls. Turn brick, now rock springs to life with a $50 bet. He doesnt bet over 25 without a monster so I knew he had a big one and he puts me on a big king to make the bet. I ho hum fold AK face down and he shows AA.

Know your opponents and pay attention very carefully. God I love live poker

ya, it's like OL players in a live environment are'nt even aware of the huge freeway of information that is just sitting there, because they are'nt used to being able to get it OL.
ppl will sit there, and literally tell you exactly how they play, how they approach AK, everything, if you can chat them up.
I geuss it's hard to imagine that they could be so stupid
some players are so transparant, that they have the strength of their hand written on their face. I'm not even talking about tells, which are more subtle.
they'll fall right out of their chair when they have a monster.

I'm all for picking up as much info as you can, but after a while, playing w/ the same weak player, I feel like i can relax on observing them, and save my energy.
after all, i know how they play, they play like a donk.
I just turn my ipod down low, and use one earbud only, and can still hear everything. it's like having background music.
the noise cancellers are death, IMO.
several times i've seen a bet, a verbal all-in, w/out the player putting his stack in, and a noise-cancelling headphone wearer say "call", thinking he was calling $25, instead of $500. oops.

I have a DVD player in my car, and i go a watch a few scenes from the Big Lebowski when in take breaks; that seems to help.

I see you have a lot of posts, however you have a huge ***** in your armor that i cant overlook. You say you have beaten up to 5/10 online. that to me says you have played it for quite some time (or it should mean that). having said that, you would then be a minimum of 10-20 live player since NOBODY who is a reg at say 600nl 1000nl online would remotely think of sitting in a preschool 1/2 live game or 2/5 for that matter.

So just to get an idea of who you really are, tell us more about where you really spend 75% of your poker time. I was just really curious after hearingyour statement that "you brought up" about beating online 5/10.

hmmm, i didnt know c h i n k was a bad word??

Agree. With the state of games today in full ring, 1000 NL is the highest games even going on PS. Which would imply that you beat the highest levels of full ring online and could easily be playing alot higher than 10-20 live.

Filter probably is thinking of the racial slur, rather than the meaning "gap."