Ok, so lets say we had HUDs readily available to us during live play. We know that live play is a fish tank compared to online play. What would be a winning (long term) HUD line in format: VPIP/PFR/3B in general?

Probably couldn't really pinpoint it to a particular set of numbers, but VPIP would be way higher, 3b would be a lot smaller, and PFR would be around the same.

My guess would be marginally looser and marginally less preflop raising than what is seen in online full-ring games. I'm probably not the best person to answer since I don't play online fullring (6-max all the way baby!). It sounds like typical TAGs run about 17/14. My guess would be live is closer to 20/12. We can limp a bit more junk in late position, and won't be blind stealing is much.

we need ANL to chime in on this one!

I'm liking the 20/12 line. Anyone else with a tad bit more experience in both fields have any input?

Honestly, there isn't one. You need to get that idea out of your head from teh start. You need to focus more on the players at the table and targeting the fish in optimal spots.

Your play live ABSOLUTELY has to vary. You cannot play one style and expect to be a decent winner live.

Not real sure what you mean by that, because if you play a certain range, you can still exploit the fish when you're in the hand.

I think optimal stats would be very dependant on the type of opponents at the table.

Open limping pps and big suited connectors in EP as well as limping along more often in LP (as oppossed to iso-ing) is gonna bring live PFR way down in comparison to online.

This is so person dependent, a lot of SSNL player like to limp. So I think they probably run 20/10.

My advice is to forget about HUD stats.

A player that is playing 1 hand or less an orbit is a nit.
A player that is playing 1-2 hands an orbit is a tight
A player that is playing 3-4 hands an orbit is loose.

Extremely few players in LLSNL are aggressive in the sense they raise even 50% of the time they enter a pot pf. For the most part, they play passively. That's why you see 4-5 players seeing a flop and few 3bets.

Typical regular online FR stats are like 14/10/3.

Typical regular live $1-2 game stats are like 75/5/1.

This is why winning live is trivial. You can simply set-mine and big-hand-mine live games and show a profit. You can play 10/8/2 and win.

For the most part, this is also true at $2-5, and even $5-10.

I say I run something real nitty like, 12/10/4

Most live players run like 50/4

How is that ever a winning strategy? That means they limp everyhand. Who is a winning 1/2 or 2/5 player and can vouch that limping everyhand is a winning strategy.

I have seen it and it works. It may not be as extreme as 50/4 but probably around 40/10ish

So basically they just play limp pots all day. I used to play like that before I started playing online. I was a losing player. But would win big or go broke in limp pots. So I made up some rule, don't go broke in limp pots. When I got online I was playing the micros like a maniac. Just to practice playing as many hands as possible. So I took limping out of my game. I still can't believe it though.

Id take a sidebet for my br that I could literally never raise in my 1/2 games over 2k hours and still be in the black.

Bobby Hoff in his interview in HOC said that Steve Lott, an excellent NL cash player, basically never raises except with KK+, AK in position. I'm pretty sure he could crush 2/5 by never raising.

Now that's not to say pf isn't important. It is. However, if a genie told me that I could either play perfectly pf or play perfectly post flop, it wouldn't even be close.

That's unbelievable to me. I don't know anyone personally who is winning with a such strategy. I see a lot of the regs limp, but that don't mean they're winning regs. I'm going to try such a style live. Something like a 30/7or8/2.

HOC, Volume II, page 360. Hoff also mentions that Lott is one of the 10 people on the planet that he wouldn't want to see at his table.

Set of players you know <<<< Set of players

its very dependant on the table makeup and the current mood of the players, but id say 30/12 is about my average. keep in mind though if the table is nuts and 3betting to absurd amounts is common or postflop aggression is through the roof (usually coz one or two ppl are arguing or just on savage tilt), ill play less speculative drawing type hands and just play hands that hit hard. so giving an average isnt very helpful seeing as my stats vary from something like 10-5 to 50-20. one last thing is also how deep you are. a lot of my profit from live games comes from playing long sessions and getting deep with fish. this will obviously affect the number of hands i try to see a flop with, esp in postion.

it also depends on your postflop game and your overall strategy ie. how you want certain players to view you, whether you want to be seen as super aggro and bluffy or really solid and straightforward. both strategies can work beautifully live if you know how to take advantage of them.

This definitely varies wildly by table dynamics.

At the "LP pre and willing to stack off with any TP post-flop, and never-ever adjusting" tables I find often at local casinos, I'll play something like 35/10, punishing them with my real hands and looking to see cheap flops and hit gin with all sorts of speculative hands.

At the "I'm LAGier than you and I can prove it" home game I sometimes attend, I look for more like 18/10. I still play too many hands there, because I haven't adjusted well, and keep trying to see cheap flops OOP, which I rarely will.

I probably play something like 35/10/2 but that depends on the table. Getting a guy on the table that will pop every hand if limped to him will cause me to play like 16/10/3.

That'll be me in one of my lagtard sessions