Shove. Expect to see A4s alot of times.

Skimmed the thread. Not sure what's going on in here.

V will almost never have OP crushed. Limping AA/KK after 2 limpers with the BTN and both blinds probably coming along is super ******ed and people just don't do it. V3's hand looks a ton like a middle pair or some Ax type hand. I raise to $250 and am pretty happy if he wants to get it in.

Yeah call it off. Pretty standard. I'd say the frequency of him over limping 2 limpers and back raising with a hang stronger than QQ is likely 10-20% of the time. The rest of the time he will have AJ+ and hands like 55-TT. That he just decided to spew with. Call, fade, and win monies!

I'd say AK makes the most sense. There is def merits to flatting if you think his range includes some bluffs.

While I agree that he shouldn't have AA/KK here bc limp/re raising from co doesn't makes sense, this line also doesn't make sense for any medium pair either.

I don't think his get it in range includes anything other than AK, KK, AA. If you can get him to fold AK pre by 4betting then go ahead and 4bet. If you think he is stacking with that hand then it may be wise to just flat and play against his dominated range.

One thing you have to be cognizant of in these situations is to know 100% for sure that the BTN/SB/yourself didn't tip off that you were raising pre as this would make limping AA/KK a viable option for him

Grunch,

A decent reg should never have AA/KK here, since if he knows the early limpers are fit or fit it would seem to be a great spot for him to make a standard raise, isolate the two limpers, and then win money.

However, since OP's read is pretty useless ("meh reg"?), I'm keeping AA/KK in Villain's range, and I think reraising only gets called by better and maybe AK. Consequently, I'm likely flatting the lrr, since even if we know that Villian has AA/KK we have the odds to set-mine, assuming that Villain is nearly always stacking-off to our set.

If you're flatting to setmine, are you c/f when you miss?

I don't like flatting this because you're life is going to be living hell post flop this deep with QQ OOP.

I'm still in the camp that V's range is still more like 66-JJ, A9s+. Maybe a very poorly played AA/KK.

OP - has the button been raising his button a lot?

Really AA or KK is so unlikely.

Why are so many people giving villain credit for AA? I honestly think the majority of the time he shows up with AQ, AJ, JJ-88.

I still strongly believe it should be a raise to 230-250 and snap call if he jams.

I can't envision a semi-competent player overlimping two weak players with AQ/AJ and then deciding to 3-bet a solid player raising from the blinds.

Villain was never described as a decent player. Meh reg was the description. Where I play the average regs biggest leak is that they are too passive and when they make moves like this they always have it. Just a live poker thang.

But yet you can envision a semi competent player being 3rd limper with AA KK prepared to see a flop 5-6 ways? Most likely villain has a middle pair type hand but for non-pair hands AQ/AJs is most likely IMO.

See my experience given this scenario (being 3rd or 4th limper) is the following: villain limps in 3rd with a mediocre hand (77, A10s, etc) after seeing raise he thinks your stealing and try's to push you off your hand.
Now if villain is 1st limper I agree with the villain having it almost all the time. Only way QQ is behind, IMO, is if villain picked up a tell that we were going to raise.

Limp re-raising from co is terrible no matter what he has. Also unless he sees you as incredibly active I'm not sure why he'd be making a move here. I just don't see live players 3b bluffing with a large frequency. Even if we do think he is wide we should have some calling range here and having QQ in it cannot be a bad thing. This is assuming relatively no reads (which seems to be the case here).

my first post was recommending flatting or folding. if villains range is small to medium pockets and A 10s type hands he isn't going to put any more chips in the pot if we 4-bet. we force him to play perfectly against us by putting the 4th raise in. live players are capable of doing all sorts of silly overlimping with mosters. i just rarely ever feel comfortable getting it in with your average reg at ll. if it's a young internet guy totally different story.

I just don't see us being behind often at all, i am open to calling but am basically never folding in this spot. My decision to jam vs call is based on the following:
1) there is $170 in the pot, just take it down here or get it all in pre (if he played AA or KK that bad then congrats to him).
2) there are so many bad flops for us to be playing OOP with the strange pre flop action.
Any board with a couple middle cards or an ace were still totally unsure where we are at in the (did he hit a set, the ace, etc.). I think if we flat pre we are just giving villain a free shot to steal a nice pot, especially when villain is in position.

I think he shows up with med PP and suited Aces the vast majority of the time. 4b for sho.

Raise to 245.

Hero 4 bets to $300 I went bit bigger as I am OOP.

V thinks 5 secs and shoves. $445 to call.

I call pretty quickly as that was my plan when I chose to 4 bet

V didn't look too happy.

Flop K74r
Turn Jr
River T

He sheepishly turned over TT after he rivered a T to scoop- meh whatever

Claimed he "put me on AK because of my big raise to $40 preflop"
Real question was what he put me on after my 4 bet to $300

Thanks for the discussion. Glad to see most here felt I am ahead there pre. I thought it was an interesting hand due to the table dynamic and back raise line.

I think I still prefer a 4bet to calling at like 145BB OOP. IP I think we can call and let him barrel with weaker, but OOP that's gonna suck and I am likely to make some costly mistakes. That flop and board would not have been super fun to play OOP with a decent stack left behind.