2/5 table at Ceasar's in Vegas (has been going for about an hour). Hero has roughly $600, V1 has roughly $400, V2 has us covered. Not much time to get reads on the players- although V1 seems like a calling station, V2 has not done anything out-of-line. Recently V2 won a decent-sized pot from V1.

$10 button straddle is on, so Hero is first to act out of the small blind, holding 1010. Hero raises to $30, 4 callers- including V1 in the cutoff and V2 on the button (and two random middle position players)

Flop: 3, 6, 8
Hero bets $100, middle position players both folds, V1 calls, V2 raises to $600.

Thoughts?

Call, You are only behind a set.

He may have a set but you are ahead of alot of hands A8, A6, Axh, Kxh, 79, 57. An op is not likely as most players would reraise with JJ+. But you made pot odds tempting by not raising pre more: so hands like 36, 68, 33, 66, 88. could definitely be in.

Raise to $70 preflop, try to get heads up.

You went wrong by making it 30 preflop on a straddled hand from UTG basically.
Thats so small, its going to set off a chain reaction of callers.

If V2 doesn't get out of line, you should fold. Either he's value-raising you or if he is semi-bluffing, there are a ton of cards you don't want to see OTT. Being OOP, I think I would just fold in this spot.

You didn't go wrong...if you folded the flop.

Readless, this is a fold - V2 is repping a set or a combo draw (i.e. sd/fd) and you're behind both. No need to get involved. If he bluffed you, oh well.

As a side note, with the table going for an hour, you must have more reads than "hasn't done anything out of line." Even things like small smatterings of conversation can add to your read - i.e. did villain ever mention things like equity, range, float, etc? or did he talk about going out with his boys to the club last night? How are his chips arranged - neatly stacked in columns of 20 or haphazardly arranged? (guess which one is more likely to be the recreational player.)

Edit after seeing above comments that you should have raised more pre-flop: Ignore those comments! Raising any more than 30 is going to get you called by bigger pairs only unless table is playing exceptionally crazy. Why let your opponents play perfectly? 30 is perfect sizing.

Fold. You don't want to play V2 when you can play V1

Based from your reads.

the 600 dollar raise seems weird, but he probably has some type of weird two pair or massive combo draw 8hxh or 79h 710h 75h etc

maybe even JJ+

fold

Given the situation, you have an overpair, but not a great one. You're still early in the game and don't yet have good reads on the opponents. I would not be too eager just yet to play for stacks.

Your V could have flopped trips, could have come in with an 86-suited and flopped top two. He could be speculating with a nut-nut draw by raising for value and fold equity. He could also have a bigger overpair. To figure he would always reraise with JJ+ isn't always right since tricky players just might call with such an overpair if they see they'll be playing short handed.

Given this set of circumstances, get out now while the gittin's good.

Next time, raise bigger pre.

All- I did fold. So did V1. V1 showed and then folded A8 of hearts (?!), which was pretty confusing. I guess my read on him being a calling station was flat wrong. V2 never showed, although he claimed to have bottom two (which seemed kind of bogus, esp. since he was smirking when saying it).

I was just frustrated because I felt like I had put myself in a spot where the people behind me could move me off of my hand. I often feel like if my line leads to such a tough, but predictable spot, I must have constructed the hand incorrectly. I guess one such mistake could be not raising more than $30 PF. I didn’t because of the reasons Dion stated. The game was playing relatively snug PF- most people raising $15 FP expect for one crazy guy who had already busted. So I figured $30 (also 3X) would be reasonable. But, seeing how things went down, I guess I see where I set myself up for this tough spot with that PF sizing.

No, not (?!). V1 would have to call all-in, getting essentially even money on a 1.86 : 1 proposition, and he would need to bink that heart to win anything, as you can be sure his TP was no good. As for why he'd show he had TPTK + NFD that was stupid to the extreme. He just demonstrated that he's a vil to respect, that he knows what he's doing, as fish can not resist calling in that situation.

It was just a bad situation. It happens, and you will get bet off hands. You will also bet others off their hands. So long as they're the ones making the -EV plays, you win.

Do people agree with Kyuubimon that V1 made the right play, given that he only had $270 left behind? I guess I'm a fish, but I thought it was a very easy call for his holding. There is some chance he's facing a combo draw, bottom 2, overpair, etc. He is in decent (or very good) shape against of all of those. He's calling $270 to win $690... He'd have to be facing a set a very high % of the time (close to 90% or something) to make this a decent fold, no? (I believe, perhaps, Kyuubimon didn't see that V1 had already called my original $100 flop bet at this point.)

Here's some calcs:

Pot is $120 +$100 +$100 + $100 +V2's raise = $420+V2's raise.

Since V1 has $400 to start hand, he has $280 left. Thus he has to call $280 to win $420+$280 (what V2 will have to add to pot from his $600 raise). $280 to win $700, so pot is laying him 2.5:1 (thus he needs 28.5% equity to make it a profitable call.).

Against sets and bottom two he has 37% equity. Against sets he has 29% equity. And if V2 went crazy with overpairs or combo draws (throwing in QQ, JJ, 45hh, 79hh type hands) then he has 45% equity.

So overall it's a call. I do think V2's range is weight towards sets and 2pair type hands, so it's a really close spot.

I think you constructed the hand perfectly. When you raise pre, bet large into a large field, you are representing strength. People generally aren't going to try to "move you off of your hand" - they are raising for value. And if they are "trying to move you off your hand" you will catch them plenty of times in the future and take their money instead.

Sometimes you play a hand well and still lose. That's poker.

FWIW, I would have played TT-AA exactly the same way. The only mistake you made is not having 88 in your hand pre-flop.

What put you in a tough position is the structure of the game with the button straddle. It's really a crappy spot for you in the SB, acting first on every street. A few have suggested raising more, but in my experience live straddles pretty much always end up multi-way. And when are you ever going to be comfortable in that situation? When you flop a set?

This could be a good spot to limp and think about 3-betting depending on who raises, or playing a small pot carefully.

Should have raised more pre. It's an easy raise for V2 with over cards.

As played, fold.

V1 folding A8 there is borderline ******ed. Should get tested.

I'd bet 90/fold on flop/

this is not really all that close.

no... raise sizing is fine pre. i don't mind smaller raises since it increases spr and creates for more post flop play... which translates to a greater edge if we are better that our opponents at decision making.

now, the correct play (against 90%+) of live villains at a small stakes game is a bet/fold.

You didn't go wrong anywhere, I'd probably stack off here

EDIT: since its a btn straddle I'd raise to 40 PF

I am a big proponent of bet/folding but folding here is awful, at worst this is likely a 50/50 race and villain shows up with JJ or a set like never

Also since its a button straddle and not an UTG straddle you probably should be raising to 40 to 50 PF

Given the description of the action, and V2, the only thing V1 did that was "******ed" was not raising that flop. He's either raising for value when TPTK is good, and semi-bluffing with an excellent semi-bluff hand when he's behind. A call OTF, followed by a big bet or raise when another heart appears, looks too much like a draw that got there. He won't get paid like he should.

As for V2, I highly doubt that he's calling a $30.00 raise pre with garbage like (6,3) to make what's likely a very vulnerable bottom two. I also don't believe he'd call in a raised pot with middle suited one-gappers. (These arethe kinds of hands that you want to play for cheap to flop big). Also, even if he had such a hand, I doubt he'd try stacking off two opponents knowing that he could be raising into a NFD that would give him dirty straight outs. He invests $30.00 to possibly win $1000 (Hero's $600; V1's $400) with a middle pair like (8,8) -- a good investment.

This just wreaks of top set. Given that, V1doesn't have nine clean heart outs, as a heart that also pairs the board makes eights full. He still loses. If I were V1 here, I couldn't find a call. If I were V1, I wouldn't've put myself in that situation by just calling the flop bet. I would've popped it there, not necessarily a shove, but definitely enough to really make those other two villains pay off. Then, if V2 shoves, you simply have to call and pray. As played, he folded good.

+1

I think live players tend to call pretty often preflop, no matter the sizing. This raise size is way too small, but making a massive raise to like $95 feels wrong too.

Surprisingly, I think limping preflop might be the best option. You're position is terrible, a normal raise is going to get multiway, and a huge raise either shuts down the action or makes a huge pot where you're still out of position.

Just keep the pot small out of position and play post carefully.

I don't think we can really criticize his pf raise decision/size.....we'd have to know more about the game dynamics. In order to l/r, we'd have to be looking for an aggro fish who's going to call l/4b's with worse. Open raising to $70 is terrible and face-up. I think the raise size is fine.....$40 would be fine too.

As for V2's line, I think the best you can hope for is 99, which isn't that likely. Everything else is a flip or you getting dominated. Good fold. V1 should call.

sizing on flop is a bit big 75$ does the job fine with this much action.

fold now.

ps - i dont mind open limping some of the time esp. if table is full of weak players