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When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes?

03-06-2024 , 07:30 AM
£1/£2, full ring is 8 players. Two hands with KK to discuss here:

Hand 1
Straddle pot (£1/£2/£5).
UTG+1 opened to £20.
Folded around to Hero at SB with black KK.
Hero raised to £75.
UTG+1 said "all-in".
Villain was the chip leader at the table with £1000+ and had been running very good. Hero was the effective stack with £300. Hero?



Hand 2
Effective stack £300.
Hero opened K♠Kfrom HJ to £10.
CO (old reg) called £10.
BTN 3-bet to £30.
Folded to hero 4-bet to £100.
CO folded, BTN called. Heads up.

Flop came Q♠72♠.
Hero bet £75 with £125 behind
Villain jams. Hero?

Notes:
Both villains are young Asian tourists. Unknown. Hero sat down at the table for less than 30 minutes.
I understand that in most circumstances our standard play is to call. However are there any exceptions?

Last edited by L.C.C; 03-06-2024 at 07:34 AM. Reason: Question clarification
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 07:40 AM
The only time you should fold KK pf is when you are certain the villain has AA and nothing else. So Hand 1 is a call.

Hand 2 has an SPR of 1. With an over pair, you can't fold either.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 07:46 AM
Hand 2 is not as straightforward as h1. At that moment I was thinking what hands can villain jam into our 4-bet range, given that we have the K♠ and blocked lots of flush draws?
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 07:50 AM
hand 1. with 5 pound straddle, you're sitting with effectively 60 bb. I don't see any scenario getting it in pf with kings to be a mistake at this stack depth.

hand 2. you bet 75 pounds into the pot of around 210 on the flop, and you have 125 behind. You only need to call 125 to win a pot of over 400 pounds after the opponent shoved on a queen high board , with you holding kings. If the opponent's range has any AQ, you're getting the right odds.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 08:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyfreakingchan
hand 1. with 5 pound straddle, you're sitting with effectively 60 bb. I don't see any scenario getting it in pf with kings to be a mistake at this stack depth.

hand 2. you bet 75 pounds into the pot of around 210 on the flop, and you have 125 behind. You only need to call 125 to win a pot of over 400 pounds after the opponent shoved on a queen high board , with you holding kings. If the opponent's range has any AQ, you're getting the right odds.
A small correction on your calculation on H2. On the flop we would only need 125 to win a pot of 600 (post rakes).

Unless we are sure our opponent has sets or a slowplayed AA, I think we are good.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 09:19 AM
There are a million threads on this subject. Summary: unless you have iron reads on your V, never fold KK pre less than 150BBs effective. Given the straddle, H1 is way less than that. H2, V could definitely "put you on AK" and jam all of his range that is 1 pair plus (probably something like TT+, AQ, with TT/JJ and AQ discounted, but present) and any FDs, though you block most of the ones that could have called pre. Sure, this is often QQ or AA, but there is plenty of other stuff in his range.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 09:47 AM
Hand 1 no.

Hand 2 no.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 09:49 AM
H2 is an easier call, with most of your money already committed and a flop spr of 1, an overpair should be fine with getting all in. He could easily have AQ and then there are some other possible holdings.
H1 is a tougher decision. It's a straddle pot so some people would consider stack depth to be 60bbs, which is a clear call with KK. But if villain is a tight, cautious player (e.g. you've seen them flat JJ/QQ/AK) then maybe you can find a fold
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
There are a million threads on this subject. Summary: unless you have iron reads on your V, never fold KK pre less than 150BBs effective. Given the straddle, H1 is way less than that. H2, V could definitely "put you on AK" and jam all of his range that is 1 pair plus (probably something like TT+, AQ, with TT/JJ and AQ discounted, but present) and any FDs, though you block most of the ones that could have called pre. Sure, this is often QQ or AA, but there is plenty of other stuff in his range.
Well that's the standard answer and I agree with it 100%, however the thread is titled 'when can we make an exploitative fold' so I would like to get people to share their experience what their 'iron read' is, is it against a known player or an unknown, and how accurate that tell is.

I know it's a call & a call the vast majority of the time, and I was wondering if anyone has ever made a fold here before, why, and what's the reveal.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Means
H2 is an easier call, with most of your money already committed and a flop spr of 1, an overpair should be fine with getting all in. He could easily have AQ and then there are some other possible holdings.
H1 is a tougher decision. It's a straddle pot so some people would consider stack depth to be 60bbs, which is a clear call with KK. But if villain is a tight, cautious player (e.g. you've seen them flat JJ/QQ/AK) then maybe you can find a fold
Unfortunately he's an unknown and I haven't seen him flatting JJ/QQ/AK. I've seen him calling a 3 bet with AQo OOP though.

Do we think there is a tell for the 'AA look', for a novice player, at a low stakes table?
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 10:19 AM
Quote:
Both villains are young Asian tourists. Unknown. Hero sat down at the table for less than 30 minutes.
There is no read here except that they come from a demographic that is often open to gamble. That would make me more likely to call here, not less. Your post later that you've seen one of them call AQo OOP is even more a read to encourage a call.

An iron read is someone whose game you know very well, who is an uber-nit. You've said absolutely nothing to indicate anything like this, and your hope that someone has the mystery tell that will let you know they have AA seems really odd.

I'm sorry you lost the hands, but they are bog standard.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 11:55 AM
I happily call in both these spots.

I'm almost never folding KK pre at low stakes. The situation has to be insanely transparent.

Post flop, sure, we can fold AA/KK when the board just sucks for us to continue.

Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-06-2024 , 05:33 PM
H1 all you need to know is KK + 60BB. There are zero circumstances that I would fold unless the other player literally flipped over their cards, regardless of position, player type or whatever. Iron reads be damned.

H2 there are no two pair and you have to heavily discount 77 and 22. Yes, having a spade isn't ideal but there are still more draws than AA/QQ and that's before you throw in AQ and random rubbish. Still a very clear call. Again yes there are times when you can start folding overpairs on the flop but this isn't remotely close to being one of them
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-07-2024 , 02:30 AM
Hand 2 is a totally different circumstance, the question is just “does he 3 bet/call with AQ?”. I dont know if anyone would agree with me but it might just be an exploitative check fold otf.

Like what is the guy 3b/calling with pre and then betting on this flop? QQ AA has you crushed, one combo of KK you chop, AK JJ TT fold. So what, youre hoping he 3b/called with AQ and then stacked it off? I dont know about that.

If you check flop i doubt AK JJ or TT bet, id be more likely to consider calling a turn or river bet, but im basically checking down that Q.



Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
The only time you should fold KK pf is when you are certain the villain has AA and nothing else. So Hand 1 is a call.

Hand 2 has an SPR of 1. With an over pair, you can't fold either.
KK+ and nothing else*

If you narrow it to KK+ its still a call sometimes, you need ~3.5:1 pot odds.

Last edited by Tomark; 03-07-2024 at 02:36 AM.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-07-2024 , 05:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.C.C
Well that's the standard answer and I agree with it 100%, however the thread is titled 'when can we make an exploitative fold' so I would like to get people to share their experience what their 'iron read' is, is it against a known player or an unknown, and how accurate that tell is.

I know it's a call & a call the vast majority of the time, and I was wondering if anyone has ever made a fold here before, why, and what's the reveal.
I have folded kings pre maybe a dozen times. Once I got 6b. The rest were all against OMC who either 3b or 4b only with aces. Need hundreds of hours with them to make that assumption.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-07-2024 , 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmahaDonk
I have folded kings pre maybe a dozen times. Once I got 6b. The rest were all against OMC who either 3b or 4b only with aces. Need hundreds of hours with them to make that assumption.
Thanks for sharing bro.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-07-2024 , 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomark
Hand 2 is a totally different circumstance, the question is just “does he 3 bet/call with AQ?”.
Thank you! You got my point. To be more precise, the question is "if V's competent, does he 3bet/call PF and jam on our flop bet with just top pair or worse? We hold K♠ so he can't have AKss, also the Q♠ is on the board so he can't have AQss either."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomark
I dont know if anyone would agree with me but it might just be an exploitative check fold otf.
I have to use some time to think through this. In my current mindset, I am never checking on this flop OOP with our normal 4-bet range, and definitely bet with this hand 100%. I do not want JJ/TT/AK to check back and see another card for free. If in some circumstances I check this flop, most likely I would check-jam.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-08-2024 , 08:42 AM
Reveal time.

Spoiler:
Hand 1, I folded, 5 seconds later villain tabled AA.

A few years ago, I noticed that sometimes after I won a hand without showdown, there would be other unknown players at the table asking me quietly if I had AA, despite that it's a single raise pot, and despite that the board had no ace. This has led me to wonder if a player would display some 'tells' with AA if he / she would act or look slightly different and whether we can capture those info.

I am not the most sociable player at the casino and surely not the ones with the highest VPIP, so I have plenty of time observing other players pre flop, and later on if they showed AA, I would remember the little details they showed pre flop and built my database - a database for general human facial expression and body language.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
and your hope that someone has the mystery tell that will let you know they have AA seems really odd.
I am a bit surprised by the amount of other players holding the 'against an unknown, never have folded KK PF, and never will' attitude, and I have not much motivation to alter the way they play, and now barely any passion left to convince anyone there's such thing as 'AA tell'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
I'm sorry you lost the hands, but they are bog standard.
Bog plays the hand purely according the hand, regardless whether our opponent is human or a pet, and regardless of all the info at the table to be captured and processed.

Because villain sat nearly directly opposite to me at the table, I could see his face so clearly. He drew my attention when he opened to 20 from utg+1 immediately. Yes he was an unknown on the table for 30 minutes and yes his previous play was no way close to a knit, but to me he has already displayed the 'AA tell'. That was the fist round of information before I saw my cards.

I then 3-bet my KK per standard play. And when he jammed that was the second round of information he gave out, for example, the tone when he said 'all in'.

It's easy to call with KK; tougher to find a fold. I wanted more information, so I asked him 'do you have aces?" Initially he didn't hear me with his earphones, then he realised I was talking to him so he took them off. I asked with smile again, 'do you have aces?" He didn't say anything but his natural reaction (I reckoned it's natural instead of Hollywood) convinced me yep he had it.

I folded, I said 'nice hand.'

5 second later, without anyone at the table prompting him to do so, he tabled AA.

It was the first time in my life I folded KK PF. No one at the table knows what I mucked. I was pleased he showed.


Hand 2, I called.

I still do not think our hand is in the best shape, if the V is a known competent player. However V was an unknown, and it was the first hand I saw him play at the table, I called.

Villain immediately said to me with excitement 'I have it!', and tabled his hand. For one split second I felt **** expecting to see QQ until I saw him tabling QTdd and he proudly said 'I have a queen.'

I felt relieved for less than 1 sec thinking my hand was in good shape, but I did not even have enough time to flip over my cards before the turn came a T which put my hand immediately behind with a little hope for the FD, and the river came another Q which had my hand completely smashed.

The villain stood up and nearly screamed. He was so excited to double up. I quietly mucked, but the shock, together with the roller coaster feeling I've had all within such a short time took me at least 1 orbit to recover from the inside.


When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-08-2024 , 09:45 AM
The "I am really happy with my hand" tells are not "AA tells." What makes a player that excited and trying to hide it varies wildly. Sure, AA is pretty much always on that list, but often so is AK, the hand he saw someone win with at the final table of a televised tournament, Th8h because his girlfriend was born on the 10th of August, as you saw in the second hand, TP4thK, etc.

Plus, each person's tells are a different in what they mean. Some people get excited about bluffing, some about flipping, and some about thinking they have you crushed.

Lastly, you mentioned absolutely nothing about any tell in your OP, so the idea that we should have taken it in to consideration and it could make folding KK pre 60BBs effective a good idea is ludicrous.

You were being asked to put in an additional 225, which would represent 37.5% of the final pot. The only way you should be folding here is if he literally shows you AA. Just three combos of hands that aren't AA in his range (like half of the available combos of QQ, for example) makes this a call. I'm glad for you that you guessed right, but even if this is usually AA, it's still a losing fold. It has to be virtually guaranteed to be AA. As you saw in hand 2, low-stakes players are not that predictable, even when they are happy with their hand.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote
03-08-2024 , 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
The "I am really happy with my hand" tells are not "AA tells."
That's a lesson most people learn the hard way. For example when they fold a straight on the river against a big raise just to see their opponent turn over flopped trips and proudly explain that they had you all the way.

If you teach somebody to play poker and tell them 22 is the best hand in the game, they're going to play it like AA.
When can we make an exploitative fold with KK at low stakes? Quote

      
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