yes this! good post

The problem is, the big bet looks like what it is -- a bluff. If a big hand here wants any value, they will bet what they think V will call.

I'm a TAG player (soon-to-be 47 YO woman to boot), and I would have called with any pair that I would have raised pre or anything I hit on this board.

Slightly different, but I called a guy with second pair recently on a paired, 3-flush board who raised pre, bet flop, checked turn and went all-in on river for slightly larger than PSB ($125). I couldn't put him on a hand, and I was right.

Sounds standard, obvious and results oriented.

1) You dont' sound like a tag player, you sound like a calling station
2) you would have called me here because you're a calling station. I doubt very much that you call with ace high, or a weak 9, or pocket 5's, but whatever.
3) In your example hand, I may have called too. If top pair trips up, less combos. Turn check+ river overbet looks like a badly repped flush. An actual flush bets both streets, or makes a value-size bet on the river. If your second pair was say...queens, and you beat his pocket 99-JJ. This hand is totally different.

Sometimes stationing a bad LAG is the best course of action.

Sometimes the sky is blue. So what? How java plays against a bad lag isn't really relevant here.

"one time I called a guy down with a weak hand cause I didn't believe him and I was right. So that means it's right every single time"

Fishiest of fishy thinking

Actually, it's called putting an opponent on a range, evaluating how they played they hand and what they represent, and then making a decision. Just plain old good poker. On flop, I would put you on a flush draw or some other draw, check turn for pot control, and call your river bet because you rep nothing and you bet too big to get any value from an obviously weak hand.

Idontworkhere: what do you think you represent? Give me a range of hands that you call pre from oop, c/c flop, check turn, and fire big on river?

You're on tilt now baby. you're making this hand personal now.

First, your argument is hugely flawed because it assumes that you have something with showdown value. Villain can easily have KQ here. In which case, betting is never a mistake because he'll always fold and we never have to show our hand.

In the actual hand (which you were not in by the way), the villain was not a 47 year old female calling station. So you can't compare betting into him, and betting into you.

Obviously V did have KQ because if he had a pair+ he would have called you. Now, please answer my questions in post 82.

An 8 for starters.

A ten that smelled weakness on the turn.

A nine that smelled weakness on the turn

Pocket pairs smaller than 7's than smelled weakness on the turn

It's possible we played 67 conservatively on a scary board.

If you were the hero in the hand, how would you play

J9, AT, JT, QT, KT, 8x, A7, 67 or a turned full house?

Hands, not single cards. You call with what 8 oop? What 9? What small pp (smaller than 8) are you calling from BB? You are calling 67? Remember V raised and nobody else called. Really hard to put you on any of those hands unless V knows you are terrible. (Then again, you did call w/ A4sooted.)

I would not have called one of these hands from BB, especially with no other callers and a raiser in position who I have no reads on, but you would?

Remember, I'm a TAG, not a bad LAG.

maybe he called with 8 and a napkin because he knew he could outplay V on later streets.

more seriously, since OP called with A4, it's kinda easy to assume he could call with AT-A7 at the very least.

in reality, OP was either bluffing with the best hand or folded out the Ax portion of Vs range.

What universe are you living in where a 5x raise gets any suited connecter, gapper, 2 gapper, or 3 gapper to fold?

take notes now kids, here's a tip:

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PUT AN UNKNOWN OPPONENT ON A PREFLOP RANGE AT 1/2 NO LIMIT.

There are just too many hands people will play pre-flop, and $10 will get called by tons and tons and tons of garbage. Suited anything, any ace, any broadway, and some offsuit connectors.

So, what you have to do is try to figure out what they have based on their betting pattern and how they play, and I put you on a bluff.

After 5 hands??? You're ****ing brilliant

Thank you. I know.

By this logic you shouldn't be bluffing the river because you don't know whether this villain is a nit or a station or what. DUCY?

Javanewt wins the thread, several times over.

Also, and in conclusion:
-we know nothing of villain in this hand, except he's deep stacked. Villain knows nothing about us, except that we're "the best looking player in the room." ...and that we carry ourselves like someone who would write like that.
-Our line looks like a busted draw.
-We don't know whether villain had a hand that could beat a busted draw.
-We don't know how villain would react to this bet, or what line villain likes to take with vulnerable top pair/medium pair-type hands on the turn.

At a minimum, these factors make this a high-variance bluff. I would only bet/fold a missed draw when fewer of these factors are in play. In particular, I'd like a better read on villain and a more established image.

Grunch

The first sentence of this post is a joke, right?

What I mean is, I don't have a read that would make me deviate from standard lines against typical opponents. See my other recent thread for what I consider a "solid read".

It's irrelevant anyway since the only villain has been at the table for five hands.

OP, I'm guessing you'd view me at the table as a bad TAG, so I'll give my thoughts on how I'd play from Villain's perspective.

If I'm Villain in this hand, I'm not c-betting AK or underpairs into this board. So the range you are targeting on the river is too darn small. No way am I folding J9 to your river bet. Against me, you are only targeting AQ and AJ, which isn't enough of my range to be profitable, and I'm gonna hero you with AQ some of time.

Bottom line, when we c-bet in position and check behind the turn, people at LLSNL (of various skill levels) lead the river as a bluff a ridiculously high amount of the time. If I've got a reasonable bluff catcher, I'm calling a ton.

LOL - buddy, you said it yourself, if you were V, you would bet most of your hands with SDV because you don't want to give away free draw on a wet board.

Have you not looked in the mirror?

I'd rather c/c bluff catch river than try to bluff it myself.