There are lots of things going on in this hand, and it's important to keep track of all of them. When OP raises the donk bet on the flop, it might serve the purpose of bluffing villain off of an overpair. But it also protects a vulnerable top-pair hand against a lot of bad turn cards and charges drawing hands appropriately. It's too late for pot control. The pot already has $158 in it and represents a big portion of both players' stacks. It's time to take this hand down or protect it when we believe that we are ahead.

All of these objectives are important, and collectively, they are why (in my humble opinion) OP should raise the donk bet, not just call it.

Based on how hand was played and the stack sizes, I think we are just ahead of his range, and getting it in is the best choice given stack sizes and chance of the flush or overcard hitting. I don't think it's necessary to worry about JJ-QQ here or trying to get him to fold those hands (never happening given villain description and stack sizes). If he has those hands, nh. But villain description would suggest that is a tiny percentage of his range.

I overspoke. I didn't mean to suggest that it is impossible villan folds JJ or QQ to a raise on the flop. I was arguing that generally villain calls when we're behind and folds when we're ahead, and we have lots of equity vs his range, so a raise is incorrect. I expressed myself poorly.

You can't value bluff. You can't raise hoping to get called by worse and fold out better. With an extremely specific read you can try to soul read and get him to lay down an overpair, thought this is likely almost never advisable. With a totally different read, you can raise for value against draws. But you can't do both simultaneously, because the type of villain who's folding overpairs is also folding draws, and the type of villain who's calling draws isn't folding overpairs. It isn't "time to take it down" - if we think we're ahead, go for value; if we think we're behind, fold.

Like I said...

If Villain is getting it in here with all kinds of 1 pair nonsense and lots of random draws, then obviously shoving is great here.

That said, Villain's donking range here (i.e. his range at Hero's decision point) *should* theoretically be wider than his get it in range. If Villain is folding his weak made hands to a shove but continuing with QQ, JJ, sets, tptk and spade draws with 2 overs to the board, then we're doing terribly against that range (about 27% equity) and should absolutely not be shoving here. If we think Villain can show up with AA or KK, it gets even worse.

Given that Villain is special and is donking (which removes all the bluff catching value in his marginal hand) and then snap stacking off with QT here (which is lol against our shoving range which I assume is basically tptk, TT+, AJss+), his get it in range is obviously obscenely wide and we can happily shove here and just chalk it up to a cooler if he happens to show up with the top of his range against us.

I still think calling is going to be better in most spots where we could rarely expect to get the money in better than 60% to win and would be pushing out the hands we want to stay in against us, but I'm not super attached to it or anything as long as everybody realizes folding here is a joke.

Why not? Isn't that what a semi-bluff is?

If you hold K 6 on a K Q 6 8 2 board and you bet the river after your opponent checks, are you betting two-pair for value against an opponent who might be holding AK, bluffing by representing the flush to persuade someone who might be holding KQ to fold, or both when either hand is part of your opponent's range?

I don't mean to sidetrack this thread, but a single bet can serve multiple functions.

Not as I understand it.

A semi bluff is meant to fold out the bottom part of his range, and have some equity and implied odds against the top part.

A value bluff is meant to fold out the top part of his range, and have equity against the bottom part.

IMO, you should have a good idea about which of these you are trying to accomplish before betting.

Betting K6 hoping to get called by worse, and accepting that villain will sometimes have better, is very different from betting to get called by worse and fold out better.

+1

The answer to the question is as endodocdc pointed out, very V dependent. while most of the time I think fish only c/c and almost never donk bet with their value hands/draws I think this V is capable of bluffing/semi bluffing here a very large portion of the time, considering dynamic and his noted loose play. In a live game, with no reads I would assume V has a wide range, but this V seems to have a wider range than most. We are ahead of a large portion of V's range here (FD's, SD's, T9-KT, PP's) and while it is possible he could have us beat this makes up only a small portion of V's range (JJ-AA, TT, 66, 44 only valid hands considering the preflop action). The fact he is UTG+2 is of no significance if you think he has no concept of position.

If villain has JJ-KK you're only a 2.3-1 dog (it is unlikely V has AA here considering you have the Ac and he may have raised AA preflop). Also, if V is aggressive we can discount QQ-KK from his range as he is likely to raise with those hands preflop. TT is also unlikely as you hold the Tc. If V has us beat I expect to see JJ or 66/44. As played I raise the flop here to get value against weaker hands. V betting $60 into ~$100 screams weakness to me.

In Post No. 28, you wrote, "You can't value bluff. You can't raise hoping to get called by worse and fold out better.." In this post, you now have a definition for "value bluff" and say that it is a bet that is meant to fold out the top part of a villain's range, but have equity against the bottom portion when called. I think that sounds like raising a donk bet of $60 into a $98 pot when you hold AT, the board is T-high, and your opponent can hold anything from an overpair to weaker made hands and draws.

I think you missed the point of my post. I gave that definition of a value bluff as an argument as to why it doesn't make any sense.

After discussing the hand with a more experience friend this is his recommendation for how i should have played:

Preflop: 3-bet more. Whether bluffing or value-raising against villain's range, he suggested raising more to try and take down pot preflop by giving bad odds gor villain to call. Raise to about $55.

Flop: get it in, but dont be surprised to see an overpair.

I think its inconceivable to expect villain to fold JJ/QQ here, even I wouldnt if role's were reversed, getting like 5:1 on my money.

And if i do call the flop, and dont improve on the turn, i'm fairly certain villain will look to get his stack in anyhow and at that point it will be impossible to fold to any bet with SPR. By getting it in on the flop i wanted to eliminate any further decisions knowing i have decent equity against his huge range (10-x, underpairs, FD, SD)

If you "know" Villain's donk/get-it-in range here includes all Tx, underpairs, FDs and SDs, then I really don't understand why this is a post. Poker stove can answer the question, and the answer is obviously shove happily and high five the dealer.

The relevant questions are what is Villain's donking range? Is he getting it in with all of those hands? And if not, can we maximize our equity most by calling or jamming flop?

If Villain's donk range is all getting it in, and he's doing it as insanely wide as you describe (but simultaneolusly without air that is folding) then I genuinely don't understand what the question was that inspired you to post this.

Sorry... don't mean to harp, but this is something I'm confused by based on a lot of the posts in this thread.

Everybody understands that if we think Villain is folding 87, 88 or T9 here that we do not have equity against these hands by shoving, but fold equity... right? When deciding what our equity for getting it all in on the flop is going to look like, we need to be constructing a range that Villain is getting it in with when we jam.

If Villain's donk range doesn't mirror his get it in range (either because he folds weak made hands or has air in his donk range), then that dramatically effects the relative value or calling or jamming here.

Also, protecting our hand, not having to make a decision later (since if we call flop we should have already decided how we're proceeding on different turns), and having a low SPR are not legitimate reasons for jamming here. We all play this game for money. Figure out which play makes the most money.

(which is probably still shoving here against said Villain, but a lot of people want to do it (or did it, I suspect) for the wrong reasons)

The question i had is in the title. What kind of hand is villain donking into me with on the flop and what is my optimal play given reads. Obviously viain is not getting it in with the air in his donk-range, so we have FE by jamming if he has air, however, if i decide to jam, what am i hoping for? Basically i went all-in without really knowing why. I got lucky in this instance but i want to know what kind of range i should be assigning and the thought process i should have

Typically a bad player will donk with top pair or a draw. But if you run into a good player like me I like to lead with sets or better.

Most of the time I just push on donk bets because I feel its disrespect to my image. Which 90% of the time your villains are not good and or FOS. So just punish donk bets.

I think we're making this hand way more complicated than it has to be. You can never get the absolute max value in every hand you play unless you 1) know villains' cards; 2) you know what villains will do with those cards; and 3) you know what cards will fall on every street.

The object is to make the best play with the information we have, and make the most lucrative move against that range. No player can make the perfect play every hand. We are limited to assigning the best range we can with the information available, and making the move that most obliges value with that range in mind. Otherwise, we start succumbing to the millions of what ifs like "If we shove, he might fold his 109, but if I flat and the turn comes 2x, he might shove to protect his hand 'cause he'll put me on AK etc etc etc,"; there's literally thousands of these and it just leads to severe FPS.

We can take out minor concerns like "how much fold equity do I have against JJ-QQ" and "Will he ever fold a hand he would otherwise shove OTT" because they are small pieces of the calculation and don't effect our decision much. We only need to start adding minor concerns when a situation is extremely marginal or more complicated and we need every single fraction of a percent involved to weight it towards +EV or -EV.

On this hand, we have a very simple decision because of SPR, the board texture, and our hand's vulnerability. All it comes down to is "Does villain make this move with enough hands we beat". If he does we shove if he doesn't we fold. It's just a simple stove question! There isn't enough room to do anything else. Flatting here would be severe FPS with the range that is generally agreed upon ITT.

If we fold out the bottom of his range and he verbally confesses afterwards "I would've shoved the turn if you flatted", that's fine. We're compensated by the times he calls worse or we don't allow an action killer to fall. Also, don't forget even if he folds worse, we are still eliminating some equity that that hand had to beat us. We beat villain's range equity wise, so we shove.

probably just flatting the donk bet as there is a fair amount of air/or worse Tx hands in villains range given your description and there is no reason of blowing villlain off of those hands tough he is prob not folding any over pair or strong Tx hand

some suggested trying to turn our hand into a bluff? and trying to get villain to fold TT JJ here, that is super horrible IMO esp in a 3bet pot as our hand has value and villain is never folding those hands.

Gotcha.

It's Villain and situation dependent of course but against said Villain I would expect it to be primarily draws, top pair, and 77-99 with some instances of QQ-JJ, air, and sets thrown in (but probably all discounted for various reasons).

I do think against bad low stakes players you can probably expect top pair and 77-QQ (not including TT) to be the majority of his range in this spot, eventhough they're all bluff catchers and Villain's donk pretty much eliminates your ability to bluff. I'm also expecting a lot of draws to be check-calling or check-jamming.

I respectfully disagree. A shove does nothing to protect against a draw. Since so much of the villain's range is a draw, I would protect against it by calling. There is no draw the villain could have that he would fold to a shove on the flop. It would cost him 150 to get 300, so even calling with an ISS and a low pair would be correct on the flop. The turn is a different story. A pot sized bet with no remaining implied odds is perfect. When you shove against a draw, he either makes a bad call or he folds.

Put another way. We agree at this point that we have enough equity against the range to get it all in. If he has a set, we are losing with either strategy. Since we have information on how our opponent plays hands on the turn and we have position, we lose nothing by calling. If scare card comes and villain has nothing, he will probably check since he doesn't double barrel. If villain has air, he will check. If a blank comes and he checks, we can force him into either a bad call or a fold by shoving.

To answer the original question, villains range is huge: Tx 6x 2s3s+ 2s4s+ JJ TT 66 44 and some added hands for air since the flop missed hero's range. We have over 50% equity, but I would still call - even though it is sacrilegious on this forum.

Then on turn call/shove any blank and evaluate any scare card.

BTW I like the size of the raise pre flop. The raise was large enough to isolate the fish with a hand that beats his range. Anything larger would only be called if you are beat therefore is of less value to you.

This, in a nutshell.

To those suggesting we flat the flop, what's our plan OTT if the 2 hits (one of the few genuine blanks I can think of given V's range is so wide) and it's checked to us? Does a shove here look stronger or weaker from V's POV? Are we more or less likely to win his stack?

What if the J comes down?

What about the 7?

This board could get very messy and if we don't shove the turn, by the river there could be 4 to a flush/ 4 to a straight/ 2 overs out there etc. How much are we hating life then when facing a bet?

So many reason to shove.

I am shoving/calling any thing that is not a 5,9, or spade OTT.

Calling OTF does not mean we are making difficult decisions later in the hand. It means we are deciding those actions now and not abandoning the tools available to us in the later streets.

I can understand shoving if playing later streets is scary to you. Once I have decided to get it allin (which is what most on this thread are advocating) I have nothing to lose by deciding to make that play OTT rather than OTF. What I gain is a play against a draw. A huge draw is 30% twice. That draw is favored against the current nuts. A little draw is a coin flip against TPTK. Draws are not going anywhere on the flop so a shove does nothing but gets out the hands you are way ahead of. When you are called by a draw on the flop, your opponent did not make a mistake. If you cannot get your opponent to make a mistake, you will not win in the long run. A shove on the turn is better because draws have to fold or make a bad call. Even against a monster, you are 70% favored to still be ahead on the turn, and your allin bet means something. OTF, it means nothing.

Yep, i tried to explain that was basically my sole intention; iso fish with equity against his range. But my friend insists i should be looking to take it down preflop. He even said since my hand pre is basically a bluff i might even shove pre. Buuut, he's experienced and i respect his opinion (despite his tendency to spazz:L)

I think your friend is wrong here, or at least misunderstands why're you're raising.

If I understood you correctly, the purpose of 3betting pre was to iso against the fish in position with a hand that rates to be ahead of his range (i.e. your hand is not "basically a bluff" and you do not believe you're the one that needs to improve the majority of the time when he calls).

Alternatively if you were 3betting an Ace as a bluff with a blocker and an over in case you get called (which probably is what your friend is doing in like situations), then he'd be right about wanting to make a bigger raise size in the interest of winning the pot right there.

villain would play 88-qq here pretty similarly against someone perceived as tight though right?

So your ok stacking off with TPTK? In this situation maybe with reads but as a default in small stakes... NO!

this looks like a pretty trivial value shove, at least in a vacuum, without any read other than "villain is loose and bad." I think you'll see top pair here a very solid %, also medium pairs. He won't fold top pair and he won't put more money in the pot with medium pairs unimproved. Sometimes he has the nuts, shrug, but a solid percent he checks to let you bet. A check/raise would be really strong here, and I would turbo-fold JJ.