Damn, I remember the day Jman posted this, time goes by so quick, and alot has changed. I miss Poker Stars and Full Tilt.

Thanks for the seasonal bump. This is one of the classic 2+2 threads and I just spent hours re-reading the whole thing.

this is a great read. I wish I was around back when this was going on

Phil, if I started working on my NLH 6max game starting 1.1.2012 how long would it take me to become as good as you are assuming you mostly play PLO and will only get better at NLH in very tiny steps because you're so much closer to having mastered it?
Could I still become better than you one day?

Just make random assumption about my intelligence, poker skills right now etc. (good enough, mediocre at best if you take my word)

What date would you put the over/under of me rising to your skill level at?

Phil is the man, just sayin.

I'll field this one Phil.


Never.

Thank you for your input but I will wait for Phil's answer.

I always subscribed to the "ask a dumb question, get a dumb answer" school of thought, but suit yourself.

I'm a sports betting neophyte.

Just how does one take the overs on "never"?

For all of you, who loved reading this and can't wait to here/read more from Phil:
He started a new website/blog. Here is the link:

http://www.philgalfond.com/

Definitely the best way to follow Phil's thoughts.

Bump to stop archiving

Best bump I have seen so far.

Well done. A true 2+2 classic.

just found and loved every min...

Legendary well is legendary.

Phil very nice tradition I hope you continue it.And since it's Easter,here are my questions
What you feel is the most important in being succesful coach?
Do you have some special preparation before playing?
Or any method for improving your game,that isn't popular/you feel is underrated.
I wish you health,happiness and more poker achievments

Okay this is gonna be an extensive one, on morality, ego, spirituality and poker.

Let met just introduce myself as an old highstakes player, I like to stay unknown. I quit poker, have nothing right now (not that I played losing), but it feels like a relieve.

Jman28"Not at all. In general, I hate organized religion.
Besides the fact that most beliefs held by major religions don't make logical sense to me, I think religion causes too much (really stupid) conflict.

We already are divided by race, nationality, sex and socioeconomic status. We don't need another thing that makes us all different. Especially one with the built in premise that everyone who is different is wrong."

I agree that what mainstream religion just as society as a whole often does is divide, but that is not what God and spirituality is about imho, to me it's about unification with Him and the universe, He wants you to come to Him. In my opinion He wants you to rid yourself from ego, thats what often gets in the way, also in my own way because my ego was huge, but it was this big mainly to protect itself from being hurt. For me the first step was watching and reading some Eckhart Tolle, who offers great insight in how ego operates, and stopping believing what my mind tells me.

Jman28"I'm not really sure why. I think just because poker is stressful. It might also just be getting older and having more responsibilities. Before poker, I was a carefree college kid who didn't worry about anything. My parents paid for school and housing, and I didn't really want anything more.

Now I worry about investing, planning for my future, insurance, taxes, etc. Anytime I'm not playing, or even when I am I guess, I'm thinking about time as opportunity to make money. Often a wasted opportunity. I worry about how I can make more.

It's really dumb."

It's not dumb, in my opinion it's very logical, I cannot see how any ego wouldn't thrive on having your intelligence and being able to beat the nosebleeds on a regular basis keeps it pretty strong. But now life starts, and your confidence is not as strong at life-stuff I'd assume as it is at the nosebleeds. The thinking about opportunities to make money and making more money sounds very greedy, as far as I understand ego it is particularly greedy, I think there's danger in that. Don't forget you are not your ego.

Jman28"I guess reading the forums here and talking to other players helped me realize that aggression is important at times. My personality makes me not want to be aggressive, but I can overcome it using logic. If I know that an aggressive play is best, I'll make it.

When I workout, I feel better for the rest of the day, so I guess working out before playing is best. I often do pushups during breaks, which I try to take every couple hours, just to refocus me."

On to my question: Do you think poker is ethically justifiable? Sometimes what I do in poker seems no different to me from what a drug dealer does to make his money."

You have a great sense of morality as far as I can judge that. Which makes it even tougher to win I'd assume, knowing you're basically exploiting people out of greed, someting that goes wildly against your personality. Again the push-ups seem like an ego think, feel stronger, play stronger, where normally you would have to overcome alot of fear to make agressive plays.

I'm just saying these things because this is how I felth, might be total projection.

Jman28"Good question.

I understand your comparison. Let me first answer why I think being a poker pro isn't unethical, and then talk about the comparison.

My opponents know what they're getting into, or it's their own fault if they don't. The rules of poker are very clearcut and well known.

We're playing a game. A competition. Maybe it's different for me because I'm competitive, but if I wanted to play tennis against Andy Roddick, I would want him to try his hardest. If people are playing poker for competition or fun, and they sit with me, I would think they'd want me to work hard to beat them. They would like there to be pros to compete against.

Then there are people who play just to gamble. Some are addicted, some aren't. Either way, they're going to gamble somewhere, and probably somewhere where they're a favorite to lose. If I don't play poker with them, someone else will, or they'll bet on horses, or blackjack.

In reality, I'm in competition with all of you, the other poker pros, not the fish. We're racing to get their money, and then a bit from each other.

If I didn't play poker, every addicted person would lose just as much money. In fact, if no poker pros existed, almost every gambling addict would lose just as much money, either to the casual poker players, or to other games.

I suppose that if gambling didn't exist at all, there would be no gambling addicts. But that's an impossibility pretty much. And many would-be gambling addicts would find something else to ruin their lives with.

So, on to the comparison with drug dealers. I suppose we aren't that different. Most of what I said above could be said for dealers.

The main difference, besides the legality of it which is not a good argument, is that I don't go searching for people to make them addicts. I don't give free samples to random people to let them get hooked. I guess poker sites do though.

The fact of the matter is, that logically, if a drug dealer never goes out of his way to get new people addicted, he probably has no negative impact on the world. The people who come to him for drugs would find them elsewhere.

I guess if someone comes to him for drugs, but wouldn't have found any and given up had he not been there, he is somewhat responsible for getting them addicted. Other than that instance, he probably isn't hurting the world as a whole by dealing.

I'm fairly sure that I've had a net positive impact on the world, and that I'll continue to even moreso in the future. That's enough for me to feel good about what I do."

But I bet you still feel guilty, this is exactly how I would justify what I was doing, to myself. Taking a game that's basic premise is to exploit the weaker and induces tons of greed. I do believe you are a delight for the people around you, but I think poker gets the worst out of most people rather than the best. I.e. you could open a rehab center for gambling addiction and have a much more net positive impact on the world.
In the end if the tennis pro wins his match, both players go home with substantial amounts of money, noone is risking his mortgage payments and tons of people enjoy going to the stadium to watch. Sure they have huge egos (usually) but at least they are also offering something in return to the public for the money they get.
Poker pros sometimes even offer snide remarks and insults for the money they make (not all obviously but ive seen some like that british **** fullflush).

Jman28"I just read a bit about the Id, ego, and superego."

So you know what I'm talking about

"If I were financially set for the rest of my life, I could not play at all for 6 months. I would miss it though."

I think that's an excuse from the ego to keep going. No offense!

Torello: "You already feel worthy and fulfilled, so you lack that motivation."

I don't think he does.

Jman28"Being a nosebleed NL/PLO player doesn't really qualify me to answer this, but I'll give it my best shot.

I go back and forth on what life is about, but I've realized that thinking about that doesn't make me happy. So maybe that's what I think life is about... being happy.

Since I don't think it's super likely that something else is going to happen after this life, it seems like life should be about your own happiness and perhaps the happiness of other people, present and future.

I think I'm happier than most, though definitely not happier than I was before poker. Life since poker has gotten much more stressful and busy, though that might just be a product of me getting older and having more responsibilities.

I don't really feel a sense of purpose. I am driven in poker by my competitive nature, though I'm not sure if that's what you were asking. I don't see poker being a large part of my life in the long term. Just a means to an end. I do love the game though.

I have strong morals, but I don't know where they come from. I try to be kind and respectful to everyone, and help people that I care about. I think that might be what's important in life, relationships with other people. It's something that poker has taken away from me a bit. I used to spend much more time with friends and family. You'd think a job like this, where you make your own hours and make more money than you should need, would lead to a lot of free time, but it's been just the opposite for me.

I'm very obsessive about making sure I don't miss good games. I often will turn down plans with friends because I think there's a chance some good games will start. I also have a lot of trouble since I weigh my decisions against my hourly. If there are good games, I could go out with friends or make $50k. Makes it tough to go out, and even tougher to enjoy yourself when you do.

I hope that one day soon I'll make enough money in poker that I'll be able to semi-retire. I'll still play because I love the game and the challenge, but I won't have to play. As far as what I'll do then and purpose, I'm not sure. I feel like getting to the point where you can do whatever you want is the hard part, so I'm working on that. I can figure out what it is I want to do later.

If I make a NY resolution this year, it should be to skip games, or restrict myself from playing at certain times so that I can spend more time with people who are important to me.

That was a bit more of a diary entry than a meaning of life answer, but you said stream of consciousness."

I agree with being happy as important, although I believe that the more I let go of ego and allow God in control, the happier I am. I think you'll be happier after poker. I also thinks ur ego lulls you into the decision of staying home for that 50k winrate, and into making the decisions overall to play sessions instead of doing family stuff, no offense.. it's just how the ego a.k.a. mind operates..

Last but not least, a Led Zeppelin quote:

Yes there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run, n there's still time to change the road you're on.

Tvp

Amazing well man. Bump for anyone who has never read this.

i just finished reading this short nypost article:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/c...=SFnewyorkpost

about Phil selling his place in nyc. the biggest surprise for me was the actual cost of the slide - never would have thought it'd go for that much.

anyway, now that i'm here i think i'll re-read this whole thing as i need to clear my head and look at things in a different light, and phil always helps to do that.

nvm

Phil, GREAT read. Every time I read something by you my brain thanks me. I'm trying to get Mr. Durrrr to make a well, could I trouble you to call him out in this thread?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...53/index4.html

Well, 5 years later, I think we can say you pretty much nailed this on the head

Great read. There are so many amazing points here. Your genuine honesty and transparency is definitely your most endearing quality Phil. And a very rare trait, coming from a "degen".

bumpin' fo lyf