Didn't know how I would play it before reading this. Now, I see how folding outweighs calling pretty easily here. Great post.

Prob is this is from Foxwoods

Yup then it is the guy I was thinking of. Back in the 5/5 uncapped days when he would have $10k+ on the table (and I wasn't very good at all), I just stayed out of his way. Guy was so solid and had no fear. Playing vs. him OOP was death.

He still play there a bunch? I don't dabble in 10/25 much so maybe I have missed him. I only go down like 5-10x per year though so not a great sample.

I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. A few of the best players on this forum (DGAF, jimmy, etc.) are saying it was a fold so u prolly made the right call. I would like to hear what they do when he bets $1k though b/c like you, it seems that flatting is pretty weak (although maybe not simply because of how deep we are).

Great hand though...thanks for posting it.

Shorn

Granted I play 5-10, if I was similarly deep stacked in terms of BBs I wold fold here. It is not like you under reped your hand on the river. If he is making this play with a blocker to the nuts or whatever, then be it. Sometimes you just get outplayed when card strength and or position is not on your side.

Let me preface this by saying that the above post applies to 95% of villains at this level. We can all agree that Jon isn't shoving a worse hand for value, so we only beat a bluff. However, it seems that this villain is good enough, crazy enough, or rich enough to bluff in this spot without "making the play of his life". The simple fact is that the only value hand I believe he can have here is QQ. JJ and J7 cannot c/c the turn this deep against hero's stack. Those two hands can take any other line but c/c. Q7 just isn't calling from the sb this deep pre, although I'm sure he would 3bet it or whatever some %. Now I'm not saying that he doesn't have QQ here, what I'm saying is that he can have 67, 78, T7 and shove as a bluff because if he has a 7 he knows we can't call. Hero doesn't limp/call pre with J7, Q7, JJ, or QQ. Any other hand hero has will be forced to make a huge hero call in a spot that just doesn't seem worth it. Factor in the times that Jon is probably 3betting QQ pre and this hand gets very interesting. It's easy to sit behind a computer and say well this could be a call and for sure in the moment I would have folded. But thinking about it deeply afterward I really think this might be the hero call of hero calls.

Great hand--definitely makes it more fun to read when there is a "gulp-inducing" amount of $ involved.

I'm a rec player so obv take my comments for what they're worth (probably not much).

I agree with your oops pf. I think with the stack sizes in play you are much better off with a raise, even a substantial one. I'm not saying that I'd play all my one-gappers this way, but if I had selected this hand to go with, why not invest a relatively small amount pf to have a much better chance of stacking somebody if you hit the flop hard (which you did).

Who should you be trying to stack? From your description, it's pretty obv V3 is the one. He's got the right stack size to do it as long as you raise pf. In fact, if you hit, he'll probably do it himself bluffing all the way. Disadvantage with V3 is that you're oop, but you're pretty obv a better player and his style suggests that being oop may be less of a problem than usual.

There was a great post that I read somewhere on this forum (maybe somebody can link it) talking about how, with really deep stacks (i.e. 14K as here) you are going to get into trouble with small pairs and small-suited connectors because even when you flop a set/little straight/little flush there are so many cards that can come on the turn/river to put you into exactly this kind of messed-up quandary. That's why, inmho, you want to stay away from V1 with this type of holding (I think it was even written about in Super System--for what that's worth). A big pf raise puts you in a position to possibly play the hand hu (although oop) against V3.

As played, I prob don't have much to contribute. I'd definitely bet the flop, the turn, and raise his river lead. I agree that you never have JJ QQ here, but I'm not convinced from the earlier posts that JJ QQ is that big of a possibility for him either, nor do J7 or Q7 seem very likely. I think it's possible that he thinks you might be weaker than you are from the way you played it (in fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that you do appear weakish and are kind of underrepped) and, as a result, I think he could be betting A7 for value against a presumed 7x (maybe with some type of draw) as your holding.

I have no idea what I'd do once I was put all in. My gut tells me that I'd let him have this one and live to fight another day.

Sounds like alot of you guys know V1. Maybe somebody can ask him what he had. This was like 3 years ago--I doubt he'd refuse to tell, but maybe he would, I don't know him. I know I'd be happy to tell somebody after a session what I had if the hand was bothering/him or her. I don't play for a living so it doesn't make much difference to me if somebody finds out my holding (as long as the session is over). Maybe the pros have a different approach, but this guy is a lawyer!

When dealing with good players, the narrower they rep and the more unlikely it is they have the hand which they are repping, the more often they have it. Remember these words.

Sad face panda fold river time

I agree, but say that the situation were reversed and hero shoved ai and Jon had 57. Given the same preflop action should Jon put hero on JJ/QQ?

boring hand to post and i call fairly quickly given description?

what lag checks jj/qq on the turn?

and fwiw when you raise, you should probably decide beforehand if worse can call.


and fwiw i dont know many good lags who open limp j7ss or q7ss in which case if you told us suits he is probably down to just a few combos of either hand....

This, plus bet/folding river for value is against my religion.

mmix- I think it's just a call on the river here vs this villain (because he can't really call a raise with worse).

---

Since the results have already been posted to this hand, I'm going to hijack (hope that's cool) with a weird deep hand of my own that always makes me smile when I think about it...

Live 10-20 at the Venetian (some of the details might be slightly off because this was about 2 years ago)

V1 is a good young LAG who would prob be a poker pro if not for having a sick job. Stack is like 7k.

V2 is a good (when he wants to be) older rec player who has been playing in Vegas forever and plays as high as Bobby's Room. He is ridic rich and loves playing with hero because they battle each other very light and very deep. He has hero text him whenever hero can set up a decent game and he plays all night- especially if he's stuck. In this session, he and hero have shown each other several successful floats/bluffs in decent sized pots. He recently bluffed off 4k though to one of hero's TAG luckbox friends who flopped a set as pfr with 44, and so he's stuck pretty good. Stack is about 20k.

Hero is a SLAG who as mentioned above, has a ton of history with V2 and knows V1 through mutual friends. Exactly one orbit prior, hero was the BB with A6o and c/r'd the T62 flop 3-way, folding out the original bettor who likely had Tx and getting the guy behind him who likely had xx to call. Hero bombed the blank turn and c/c'd the blank river to win a huge pot (line foreshadowing). Stack is cover.

Pre- (30) V1 opens to 80 utg+2, V2 calls to his direct left, 4 folds, hero calls in the BB with 66.

Flop- (250) AK6. Hero checks, V1 bets 180, V2 calls, hero raises to 580, V1 calls, V2 calls.

Turn- (1990) 2. Hero bets 1450, V1 calls, V2 raises to 7k!

The pot is now almost 12k, V1 has about 5k behind, V2 has a little over 12k behind, and hero covers. Balancing history/images with JUST HOW CRAZY JUMBO THAT TURN RAISE WAS (you don't see anyone put 7k in on one street with 12k behind almost ever in that game), what's your play?

Im surprised no one mentioned this before I mentioned it myself. When I said I thought I butchered it this was my main concern. However, I don't think the reason is he cannot call with worse, because he definitely can. Its more so that raising just opens me to a situation where he can put me in a tough spot since my range is very capped to hands that are not nutted and I probably cannot call a shove.

WTF Man. How dare you? Just kidding it all good. The results are kinda meaningless though because I'm pretty sure I made the wrong move, and we have no idea what he has. Ill take a look at your hand in a few.

P.S. How do I use multiple quotes from same person in one post? Ive seen people do it but I have no idea.

If you are not prepared to call a raise against someone who you know can do it with worse, than flat seems ultra nitty but is still better than raise folding.

I have to call, esp after V1 calls. The mere possibility that villian can be making a move here, plus the fact that it is an odd spot pre to flat with aa or kk make this a standard call for me. Obv he can have either, but he is stick and capable, so I am snapping, or tanking and hoping v1 willcall with ak aswell. Since you are posting this though I am just going to assume he had you beat tho.

When I made the raise I thought I was prepared to call raise. I However, did not expect him to shove, since thats a pretty big overbet.

So you were prepared to call a value reraise, but not a shove which is probably more likely to be a bluff? Seems odd to me, but I have been in spots like this myself where I went from snap calling to tank folding, always disheartening.

DGAF at first looking at your hand I am at a complete loss. Thats very tricky. Do you think he expects either you or the other player to fold AK, A6, and 66 to this bet.

The main thing that makes this hard is since you are check raising light V1 does not have to be all that strong since he may be looking you up light. This extra money in the pot might make it enticing for the guy to raise to take you both off what may not necessarily be strong hands.

I really think he is polarized here and don't expect him to show up with AK that often with that sizing, since it looks like he wants to go for stacks. If he had AK I would expect a good opponent to make a much smaller raise.

I guess I would stick it in and pray( but this seems very loose).

Bleh I think I changed my mind prolly a fold. This is why I hate supper aggro super deep poker b/c of spots like these.

I have to be right a lot more often against a shove

I meant he can't have a worse hand that can call, all things considered (if that makes sense).. And yeah, not having the nuts (or near nuts in your range) is very exploitable in deepstack poker when betting or raising- in theory at least. In reality, I spot people making these bets or raises all the time. I usually have no cap on my range, but just as I get ready to exploit, I think better of it because no one ever folds a good hand to a "crazy LAG" no matter what--> I think it's more exploitable against a good TAG if they have the to pull the trigger. IDK, pretty sure dude had QQ...

You copy the end "(/Quote)" part of the post and paste it everywhere you want a break. Then you copy the beginning "(Quote=mmix85;2738659)" part and put it everywhere you want to start up again.

The player in the BB might have just limped with JJ or QQ, being possibly scared that one of you limpers b4 the loose player made his button raise, might have just called with KK or AA, knowing the button player raised alot when he's on the button. With the big stack he had and the big stack you had, he might have been playing a little defensively, with you limping into the pot. I think, if he hit a monster, he hit Jacks full on the checked turn. Alot of players would bet out on a good flop likke 775, but he just decided since he did'nt minimize the field with a reraise of the button players original raise, that he would just continue playing the hand defensively (by just calling your $500 bet on turn).. Heck, he coulda played QQ the same way, and connected QQ's full (actually I think this is what he had), on the river. I gotta strongly agree with your fold, especially if he respects your play, and he is not a complete loose cannon. Sleep well, you saved your dough, bro!

You call, or ship?

Just call, don't really see value in getting it in.