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value lines same villain similar runout value lines same villain similar runout

02-07-2015 , 03:59 AM
1/2 $500 buy in. These hands took place within ten minutes of each other against the same reg. Similar run outs, I'm trying to get value oop against a reg.

villain. tagish middle aged Asian guy. Tighter pre, hand reads pretty well, will shovel money in if he thinks he's ahead. example- bet/3 bet 250bb on the river on 578Q6 board w/ just a naked 9x when opponent bet flop and turn then raised his river donk lead huge. ~$650

hero: have been super card dead and doing a ton of folding for the past two hours. he knows I'm normally on the looser side and am capable of showing up with the nuts or nothing in any given spot. ~$400

hand 1

hero raises 47 from HJ to $12, villain calls from the button, heads up

flop (~$23) Q K Q
hero cbets $16, villain calls

turn (~$55) 3
hero leads for $38, villain takes awhile and calls

river (~$130) 3
hero bets $85 targeting Kx, JJ,TT,99,88

hand 2

4 limpers to hero in the bb, who checks option w/ A7

flop (~$10) J A 7
checks to villain who bets $12, hero calls everyone else folds, HU

turn (~$35) 2
hero check/calls a bet of $28

river (~$90) 2
hero donks $55 trying to rep missed clubs/weak A trying to move villain off chop

how would you guys attack these spots and why?, I thought these were interesting as the board ran out so similar vs same guy. Both lines are kind of non standardish, thanks for the feed back.
value lines same villain similar runout Quote
02-07-2015 , 04:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patchohare
1/2 $500 buy in. These hands took place within ten minutes of each other against the same reg. Similar run outs, I'm trying to get value oop against a reg.

villain. tagish middle aged Asian guy. Tighter pre, hand reads pretty well, will shovel money in if he thinks he's ahead. example- bet/3 bet 250bb on the river on 578Q6 board w/ just a naked 9x when opponent bet flop and turn then raised his river donk lead huge. ~$650

hero: have been super card dead and doing a ton of folding for the past two hours. he knows I'm normally on the looser side and am capable of showing up with the nuts or nothing in any given spot. ~$400

hand 1

hero raises 47 from HJ to $12, villain calls from the button, heads up

flop (~$23) Q K Q
hero cbets $16, villain calls

turn (~$55) 3
hero leads for $38, villain takes awhile and calls

river (~$130) 3
hero bets $85 targeting Kx, JJ,TT,99,88

hand 2

4 limpers to hero in the bb, who checks option w/ A7

flop (~$10) J A 7
checks to villain who bets $12, hero calls everyone else folds, HU

turn (~$35) 2
hero check/calls a bet of $28

river (~$90) 2
hero donks $55 trying to rep missed clubs/weak A trying to move villain off chop

how would you guys attack these spots and why?, I thought these were interesting as the board ran out so similar vs same guy. Both lines are kind of non standardish, thanks for the feed back.
Your description of V includes a hand that is basically useless with out knowing the complete action, positions, suits, and sizings. Just tell us general thoughts/tendencies on this guy unless you can recall a complete hand.

Hand #1:
PF seems overzealous.
Everything else is fine until the river. Why continue betting when we no longer bet a flopped TP or almost any other flush? Especially so considering your tight PF image.

Hand #2:
You messed this up pretty bad.
Bet flop
Bet turn
As played check river.
value lines same villain similar runout Quote
02-07-2015 , 09:15 AM
Hand 2 is an obvious bet/bet/bet.
value lines same villain similar runout Quote
02-07-2015 , 09:40 AM
Hand 1 is too thin otr. Hand 2, why are you not at least xr flop or turn??
value lines same villain similar runout Quote
02-07-2015 , 10:30 AM
In the second hand, how much of a factor is holding the ace of clubs on that board? OTF, you have two pair and back door nut flush draw, so maybe you're less scared of the flush draw because if a club hits the turn, you still have a lot of equity (13 outs to boat or make make the nut flush)?

I think you have to check raise the turn. This is the spot to make money on this hand. your two pair is vulnerable to a lot of Vs range so its going to be hard to correctly get value on the river. Any J counterfeits your hand; any club completes the flush draw; any card over 7 potentially gives V a better 2 pair.
As played, the two is a good card for you to get value (you were always losing to AJ, so that's not really a consideration) but I think this hand screams for a check raise on the turn.

Last edited by Dutchstreetfish; 02-07-2015 at 10:31 AM. Reason: Typos
value lines same villain similar runout Quote
02-07-2015 , 12:09 PM
I like both lines myself. I personally wouldn't bet the river quite as hard in hand 1.
value lines same villain similar runout Quote
02-07-2015 , 11:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naked
Your description of V includes a hand that is basically useless with out knowing the complete action, positions, suits, and sizings. Just tell us general thoughts/tendencies on this guy unless you can recall a complete hand.

Hand #1:
PF seems overzealous.
Everything else is fine until the river. Why continue betting when we no longer bet a flopped TP or almost any other flush? Especially so considering your tight PF image.

Hand #2:
You messed this up pretty bad.
Bet flop
Bet turn
As played check river.
we have a flush in hand 1? we absolutely beat top pair, his most likely holding. Basically he is always raising the turn w/ Qx when the diamond hits, (value/protect). When he calls he has zero Q's, other than a super slow played KQ (flopped FH). A check/raise never gets called by anything we beat (his Kx), and TT,JJ is checking back the river but will hero in this spot a fair %.

I feel like this river is a must bet/fold spot. If he turns his Kx into a bluff so be it, but that happens almost never when we triple barrel. Against his flop/turn flatting range I think we leave way to much value on the table checking the river.
value lines same villain similar runout Quote
02-08-2015 , 12:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchstreetfish
In the second hand, how much of a factor is holding the ace of clubs on that board? OTF, you have two pair and back door nut flush draw, so maybe you're less scared of the flush draw because if a club hits the turn, you still have a lot of equity (13 outs to boat or make make the nut flush)?

I think you have to check raise the turn. This is the spot to make money on this hand. your two pair is vulnerable to a lot of Vs range so its going to be hard to correctly get value on the river. Any J counterfeits your hand; any club completes the flush draw; any card over 7 potentially gives V a better 2 pair.
As played, the two is a good card for you to get value (you were always losing to AJ, so that's not really a consideration) but I think this hand screams for a check raise on the turn.
Ok, so everyone so far takes issue with the passive line I took in hand 2. I played it slow mainly because this was a limped pot. This villain is always opening AJ+, AA, and 77(+) probably 4/5 times, plus I block 77. Meaning his holding is marginal in strength. This and I'm in the big blind.

We have a villain that hand reads well with a range capped around A8/A9. We block the nut flush draw. A raise from the bb screams two pair +, and villains range can't continue, he can't handle a raise.

If we donk the flop and turn we probably get called, but we are never getting three streets. He folds to a third bet and if we check planning to c/r, he checks behind and takes his Ax show down.

By check/calling twice I feel like we rep a FD(even though I'd never play a FD like that) and weak A's. The check in the bb pre leads to this as well. The sizing I chose was smallish, around half pot in hopes of looking like a blocking bet/ cheap steal w/ a bad A, trying to avoid chopping. I think I keep busted FD's in my range as well.

If this were a raised pot and I didn't hold the A I would absolutely donk or c/r depending. probably bet out and bet/call 3 streets. But as it was I didn't think I could get three streets any other way. Being in the bb vs someone who hand reads I don't think a turn check raise gets looked up very often at all in this spot.

Basically how I looked at the hand, and pretty much any hand, is my absolute hand strength is kind of irrelevant if my opponents range isn't strong enough to put a bunch of money in. and that imo was what was going on here.

But I'm certainly open to hear someone's explanation as to why/how we could get more value all things considered.
value lines same villain similar runout Quote
02-08-2015 , 12:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by patchohare
we have a flush in hand 1? we absolutely beat top pair, his most likely holding. Basically he is always raising the turn w/ Qx when the diamond hits, (value/protect). When he calls he has zero Q's, other than a super slow played KQ (flopped FH). A check/raise never gets called by anything we beat (his Kx), and TT,JJ is checking back the river but will hero in this spot a fair %.

I feel like this river is a must bet/fold spot. If he turns his Kx into a bluff so be it, but that happens almost never when we triple barrel. Against his flop/turn flatting range I think we leave way to much value on the table checking the river.
edit-both these river spots are instances where villain is more likely to check back then bet. At the same time in both hands, villain almost always gets to the river with something strong enough to call a normal sized bet. The best part in each is he has no real raising range. Straight value spots.
value lines same villain similar runout Quote

      
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