1/3 nl, action game with a ton of LAG rec players. Hero has $350 behind, button has $275, UTG+1 has $165

Hero has Jc 10c in HJ

UTG open raises to $10, UTG+1 calls, hero calls, button calls

Flop is Jh, 8c, 7c

UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $20, hero calls, button calls, UTG folds

Turn is 8s

UTG+1 bets $35, hero calls, button looks surprised that everyone is calling. After 30 seconds, he goes all-in for about $220, UTG+1 snap calls with his $100

Pot is now ~$500

Hero ?

I would just fold. Clubs might not be good and the surprised look and jamming into the field is pretty strong. I would say 8x or better here.

At a squeeze happy table, facing a UTG raise and a call I would just fold JTs preflop from HJ. Too much risk of being raised. You can call on the button and CO is borderline. You can also squeeze yourself but I wouldn't do it often. Note that +1 is only 50BB deep which JTs doesn't like.

Flop is fine. Initial turn call is OK. Against all this action just fold. You have a weak top pair, a gutshot and a weakish flush draw on a paired board facing lots of action.

Top pair and sfd I’m raising flop. I think on this board texture we can make better hands fold. Maybe it will take a second barrel but there are not a lot of turns we can’t jam. We can also make worse call occasionally.

Trivial fold preflop for me. We shouldn't be calling raises preflop with trashy hands, especially not in position, especially with some shorter stacks in the game, especially at action tables with possible squeezers behind us.

Even calling the flop is a little meh. We still have a guy behind us. If behind (not an unreasonable assumption due to someone leading into the world) we don't really know what our clean outs are plus we have low IO / high RIO on them (they bring in a 4-to-a-straight which will likely only get action if we're behind). This isn't really the monster I was looking to flop this multiway so I would probably lean to a fold.

I think we have to find an exit on the initial turn bet. Dude is still betting into multiple opponents, we still have the guy behind us to deal with, and we could easily be drawing dead. Trivial fold facing the raise / call.

ETA: Didn't realize we were soooted and also flopped a flush draw. Still think preflop and turns are folds at all spots; flop call is fine.

Gyourfoldbuttonisbroken,imoG

Thanks, I'll try to adjust my preflop calling range in the future.

So, I ended up making the call. I had a lot of outs but I wasn't sure which if any would be good. If I was playing at a tighter table I'd assume at least one of them already had a boat and I was dead without the 9c, but in this case I thought they could easily have a random J or a random 8 and all my outs would've been good.

River was another 8. Button shows 89o for quad 8s. UTG+1 shows Kjo.

So yeah, the club draw was live and the straight draw would've been except the guy happened to have a 9. Doesn't matter cause I never hit a draw anyway, not joking.

In the end, we pretty much ran into the best case scenario, where we actually had 11 clean outs, thus needing about 3.5:1 to breakeven, which is pretty poor considering we were getting only 2.5:1 (assuming we were behind, which is a very standard assumption to make to this action). Add in the times we're drawing dead / have fewer outs, it is a pretty trivial fold, imo.

ETA: Whoops, I was counting 2 Jacks as clean outs, but the other guy has one plus we would only chop that portion of the pot with him. So, yeah, real bad shape.

Oh, and so long as you get in a reasonable sample size of hours, you'll hit your draws at pretty much the same frequency as everyone else. You're going to have a tough time winning at poker if a cornerstone of you're thinking is "I never hit a draw anyways (for realz)". Not hatin', just sayin'.

GcluelessNLnoobG

The problem in these multiway spots is that often another person will have a better FD than you and even if they don't you have less outs vs the guy with 8x.

So your equity in reality is way lower than what you thought it was on paper.

Flop raise is preferred, as played fold turn.

Close, but I think it's a fold.

What is the rake structure like and how deep is UTG? This is probably just a fold pre.

While I'm a winning player, I'm also a rec and if the day ever comes where I have to fold JTs to a single raise with any regularity, I think I'm done with hold em.

Flop: You really could go either way here. It's kind of a weird spot as you don't really have a ton of bluff targets. But you don't mind any amount of action either. So I think it comes down to game/player types and variance. I often like to push the action, fire up the game, and build my image, so I might lean to a raise here. If the game was kind of big for me or there was some other reason I wanted to reduce variance I might slow down. (generally, variance is bad. But with this hand, whatever).

On the turn, I lean much more to aggression. One of the few hands we were in real trouble against on the flop was 88, so I like seeing the 8. We can certainly have an 8 ourselves. V's bet is a little weak, so I feel we want to attack now with both value hands and bluffs.

I'm pretty surprised by Vs holding. I'd expect him to either be weak, or have a full house. There is a lot of stuff for him to target and with just an 8, many rivers are gonna be painful.

AP, you could probably flip a coin. The SF and FH outs are nice, just in case. I lean to calling. Goes back to BR, image, etc too. If the money isn't very significant, let's play a big pot and get things rolling.

Variance is good.
1) Stacks get deeper.
2) We won’t tilt and they might.
3) Having a gambly image helps us in future hands. And flipping is fun.

There is nothing wrong with playing for fun and playing some hands that are -EV preflop in the same way that there is nothing wrong with playing baccarat. But, I think it's good to note that this is probably a losing call preflop in theory and likely in practice. I know it's depressing. It seems nitty and maybe even embarrassing to be folding this hand preflop. But it is what it is.

There are a bunch of other things in poker that are fun that rec players don't do enough that are +EV though. 3betting and 4betting with hands like A5s, jamming as a bluff and experiencing that beautiful moment when your opponent folds. But everyone gets their kicks in different ways.

I distinctly remember replying to a post about a ~decade ago here, where I said something like "you'd have to pry QJsooted from my cold dead hands before I folded it preflop to a single raise".

But now, I fold non-premium suited broadways to a single raise without so much as a second thought. I dunno, prolly close, and maybe game dependent (it's possible those type of hands were more profitable in lol games / opponents of yesteryear). But
their RIO multiway are real.

GbutI'mobviouslysupernitty,sothere'sthatG

It depends on your situation. As I suggested, if I'm vastly overrolled for a game, I might push variance for the reasons you gave.

Generally, though, it's bad. There is a term I can't remember people here often use for when you really run bad for a long time. Something like The Void, but not that. If you play as a job, it's a really miserable experience.

Apart from subjective things, if variance is high, ROR goes up and you have to play smaller and probably make less money. Like, if you could get a 1% return every day with zero risk, you could just go all in for your NW every day and soon you'd be loaded.

Having said that, if you have a really good job and you play 2/5 on the side, you DGAF about variance and the grinders do, so you can turn that to your advantage, as you suggest.

Re preflop, if you're playing JTs then you're playing all suited Broadways. Which is fine, in the majority of situations you don't want to be folding suited Broadway hands preflop. But this is (1) an EP raise; (2) there's a caller in between; (3) that caller is short stacked; (4) you don't have great position - there are still 4 players to act not to mention the two who are in the hand already; (5) this is one of the weakest suited Broadways. Calling this with 4 players left to act doesn't feel good unless CO and button are very weak and if you're squeezing 100% of suited Broadways in this spot then you're squeezing too much. It's probably about a 30% squeeze spot.

I understand the advice to fold pre. ... but one of the reasons robots do it is because the threat of getting 3bet and not seeing a flop, plus the ranges in front of you (and any that play behind) should be very tight and will dominate your flushes.
Eg. here UTG+1 shouldn't have KJo in his _open_ range and BTN shouldn't have 98o in his _open_ range (but is over over calling).


Robots ranges in HJ for EP open + MP call with 100bb are:
JTs is almost always folded, but 3bet ~5%.
QJs is about 45% 3bet and 10% call.
KQs is about 95% 3bet and 5% call.
Which is all to say that at pretty much all 1-2/1-3 and even most 2-5 tables I would forgive myself a lot for calling 3.3x with JTs and 3betting AJs (which is a pure call) or even AQs/JJ (which are almost a pure calls).


On the flop I would want to borrow a snow shovel for the amount of chips I'd want to put in, but we only have 100bb.


As played on turn I'd lean towards folding to the first bet, never calling the spew shove from BTN.

Preflop - Ignore the nits telling you to fold.

Flop - Ignore the nits telling you to fold. Calling is bad, raise and prepare to stack off. We are winning the equity battle against better top-pairs. We are winning the equity battle against better flush-draws. We are winning the equity battle against any two-pair. We have ~40% equity against sets and made straights. We block the only pair+flush draw available. It's time to go.

Agreed, but probably fold to shove on turn as played.

Not playing solver ranges in a live 1/3 game. First caller can have all sorts of junk and you have position on them. The solver assumes both players have strong ranges.