2/5 NLHE about 800 eff table, 1200 eff with V. 8 handed.

Table has opened just recently and I'm new to the world of 2/5. I'm playing tighter pre as there's a lot of 3-betting, 4-betting and so on going on. People are 3-betting KTo, K7s, and cold 4-betting hands like KJs and A2s.

V - Play a lot of 1/3 with him but this is my first time seeing him at 2/5. He's a quiet and conservative player at 1/3. His 3-betting range is nutted and post-flop he proceeds with caution. Value betting is his main game as he's a winning player at 1/3. He seems to run bad though - or seems to have troubles somehow, not sure how to describe it. He's a lot better than the typical 1/3 fish but he somehow seems to win the minimum in spots or bluff into the nuts now and then type deal. I would say he's actually a bit weak-tight at 1/3 in that he can make folds like QQ pre when 3-bet by a fish. At this 2/5 he's been a lot more active. FPSy imo. I've seen him 3-bet A9s UTG+1 vs UTG which he would never do at 1/3. 1200$. MP.

H - Should have weak-tight scared money image. Covers. BTN.

Table - almost every hand is 3-bet or 4-bet pre with this hand being an exception.

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UTG opens 15, V calls UTG1/MP, CO calls, H calls BTN with Q T, BB calls. 5-ways IP.

Flop 75 - Q 7 2

checks through

Turn 75 - Q

BB x, UTG x, V bets 35, CO folds, H raises to 115, BB folds, UTG folds, V 3-bets to 400 leaving about 800 back, H tank calls (?)

River 875 - 9

V checks, Hero?

What do you believe V's range is here on the river? Just calling the UTG open (do we have any reads on the opener?) at UTG+1, I have a difficult time giving V hands like AQ, KQo, QJo(?) as many of those should be 3b or folded, right? In a game this 3b and 4b happy? 77 is possible, if we think V wiffed on a c/raise. Maybe 22 also.

So, maybe QJs+ (3), QTs? Q9s?? Plus 77 & 22 (6). Any club combos that would normally b/3b the turn? Additional bluffs here beyond something like JTcc? The 9c blocks many of those.

Mostly, I want to check back the river---despite racking my brain thinking for a part of V's range we beat at showdown beyond pure bluffs, but if we shove for 80-90% pot, is there any better hand that V holds that we can get to fold? Like club flushes that were semi-bluffing the turn? Or something like QJ or KQ? I don't think any of the underboats would fold.

Honestly, I might fold to the $400. I don't see how we are good here?

Only reason to bet river is to try to get him to fold a better Q, and I just don't know if that's going to happen. It is an awesome bluff card for you, though.

Java, how often do your Vs occasionally bluff 3b scary turns like a board pair, 4 to a straight, or 3-flushes?

On the one hand, nearly 4x 3b says I don't want you to call. OTOH, it makes for a non-overpot shove by H if V is trying to set that river up.

If V flushed on the river, wouldn't V likely bet vs check? V's perception of H's range is that it's mostly various Q hands, right? Which would usually check back this river vs betting?

I usually screw up the check-call vs bet-fold decision tree, despite lurking here for awhile, so I'm curious how more knowledgeable posters (like yourself) play this.

Really like your flop check back. Turn I just call in position considering villain will have very little equity and might bluff river against our capped range that he might assume is never trips.

As played the turn 3b bomb is troubling. I probably find a tight fold, we are bluff catching. As played checking back river expecting him to say we are good 95% of the time, sometimes showing his JTo.

I'd prefer a small flop bet - we can get a street of value, keeps our range uncapped, and doesn't allow our opponents to realize equity. As played OTT I would fold against the villain especially given he's a quiet and conservative player - if he had a flush draw I would think he's more inclined to call your raise than anything. On the river I would think his range is better Qx, full houses - you might be able to fold KQ/AQ/QJ with a bet, but obviously get snapped off by FH's. Would probably just check and pray he has some silly bluff.

This type of opponent? Very rarely.

Yes, I think he'd bet, but he might be scared that you boated and he's waiting to check/call with a flush. That said, I don't think he's raising that turn to $400 on a flush draw -- very unlikely.

If you bet this river, it is basically a bluff, and you don't really have enough to bet/fold to actually make him fold (if that makes sense). You need to almost shove to make it look believable -- or maybe $600. I'm not sure $400 or less is going to cut it, but maybe. Obviously you can't check/call

It's very unlikely he has a flush, but he's not folding an underboat. If you bet river, you are hoping he has AQ or KQ and can fold. With your image, it might work, but I'm not sure it's worth it unless you get a weak read from him on the river.

Check river as played. Folding to turn 3! given villain description.

Don't think villain is giving you credit for a flush on this action and kq+ isn't folding.

Banana, if you're ever in Philly, let me know. We should play together. Then post the hands here, if only to drive everyone nuts. I like the cut if your jib.

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Yeah, I cannot see what V would fold getting 2-1 on the river having arrived there in this fashion.

The turn raise by H is pretty optimistic. Just call. Board is pretty dry.

Result:

Lol its wild some of the crap you see in these games. Glad you got this one. I could see myself folding turn to the 3bet.

I think one of the toughest things to deal with is getting bluffed like this because people just bluff in spots they shouldnt so they accidentally come off so strong and the other is how they overvalue hands so they accidentally bluff when they think they are value betting.

I folded the best hand twice last night to accidental bluffs by villains overplaying their hands. I know this because they proudly flipped over their hand and said "good fold"

LOL. What? He wasn't calling anything on the river, but holy cow. Poker is alive and well.

i dont think you should raise turn

Yea maybe not in hindsight, maybe AQ/KQ raise and QJ/QT just call.

He has the 7 blocker. Probably he needs to fire again on the river.

I think you should make a small 3b pre in position but flat must be ok

On flop you unblock all the bdfd floats so make a 25pc bet into this dry board. Maybe check back the other two combos of QT suited that block a bdfd.

Turn raise has to be fine as your hand is completely under repped.

Then the call must be ok, he can have flush draws, a bluff with the 7 blocker as he did, perhaps a tied or worse queen. He can't have that many combos that beat you.

Then river check is fine, you can't beat his calling range. It's interesting if he bets out on the river though, then you have a tough decision

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Nobody mentioned preflop?
Calling QTs here seems pretty std. 1/3 fish "pot odds hopium", you'll be at least 4 ways and you are really poking SB/BB to 3bet at a table that is 3bet heavy.
You do have position but you will mostly be calling with a bluff catcher.
It's probably not that bad to call, but I wouldn't be shocked if it was near 0 EV long term and gets you into a lot of spots where you'll be guessing.


Flop is a perfect illustration, I don't mind the check but it's better to just not be here with this hand. And we get one of the better turn cards for us and are still lost.


Turn is super weird, if we are going to raise here just bet flop. When the 3bet comes in I guess he's repping 77 or maybe 22 that was going for a flop x/r ... Better Qx seem like they'd just bet flop. On the other side it's hard to find a good 3bet bluffing range here, I guess a few combos of Ac*c can go nuts.
Even if he is finding weird non-club bluffs or assumes you never have Qx or better (so assumes club draws for you) ... I guess those are going to shove blank rivers and it kind of sucks to call it off.
Would be tempted to fold to turn 3bet, even though we have to be close to top of range if not have it.

Pre isn't a fold! As I said above it's a clear 3b but call is okay too. You can't just 3b premiums, you need some bluffs and board coverage with suited connector hands

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Robots disagree.

At 100bb
EP open + CO call, BTN 3bets KTs+ but pure folds even QJs. Does a bit of 3bet with KQo and over half AQo.
EP open + MP call, BTN 3bets K9s+ (and bits of K8s/K7s/K6s) but pure folds even QJs (and KQo/AQo).

At 200bb
EP+CO: QJs/QTs become low frequency calls and KQo/AQo become pure folds.
EP+MO: Looks very similar to 100bb.


BUT we have EP+MP+CO ... so we should be tighter with hands like this that will be dominated.


To be fair I don't mind a low freq. 3bet if you want to play it, assuming live ranges will be wider than robots (and given the table is 3bet happy but we've just had two calls) ... but you don't need to do it all the time, and board coverage isn't really a thing with QTs (esp. at this kind of table and stack depth). I also wouldn't mind calls some of the time, if the table wasn't 3bet happy.

With a weak-tight image at an action table and on the button I like a preflop squeeze. Don't hate calling, folding would be a bit tight unless you think blinds will squeeze.

Flop check good. I really don't like the turn raise; better Queens won't fold and this field caller won't have hands like AA/KK or two pair so you're hoping he'll stick around with an underpair or Q9. Just call. As played call/fold is probably close to the 3bet, a tight fold might be best.

You can't get called by worse on the river. You're hoping he has some sort of KQ/QJ type hand that just calls preflop, 3bets turn and will now fold...would be an odd line. You have showdown value; check it back.

PRE - flat calling QTs on the button is fine when the raise comes from UTG. If it was from another LP player, I might occasionally raise, especially if the players in the blinds are squeeze-happy.

FLOP - I'd probably bet small when four opponents check to me on the BTN. Our hand could use some protection from hands like AK and worse 1P hands that can make 2P on the turn.

TURN - I would probably just flat call if we just checked back flop, to keep V's range wide.

I don't mind the raise because club draw, but V's 3B for half his stack would freak me out. This would feel a lot like KQo. Hard to see what worse value hands would take this line, or what his bluffs would be. I'd probably fold, because what are we hoping for when we call?

If we're up against KQ, we're hoping to spike a T, or to catch a club that isn't the Kc, so we can turn top trips into a bluff, assuming he checks a club? How many flush draws do we have here? A2cc maybe? I'd be expecting V to just jam the river from up front on most rivers, so we won't even get the chance to bluff.

RIVER - This is the problem with calling the turn 3B. I wouldn't think QT is good enough to check back here. When V checks the club, I'd be very tempted to jam as a bluff, to push V off KQ, but turning our hand into a bluff seems nuts, because not many V's will fold KQ here, especially if they have the Kc in their hand.

Ok interesting, that's surprising, but sounds like you ran it so I believe you! I'd have thought these suited connector hands were good 3b candidates

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Interesting. But I think one thing that really I can never understate is how wide people are opening (and calling) at my game - and these were more competent players. One guy who I thought was on the tighter side opened 66 UTG the other day. I'm continually shocked by the garbage I see in people's ranges.

Surely 66 as a 2 BB open is fine utg if that's your open size?

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Love the robot post, but I agree with Stupidbanana that live players are much wider and much less predictable -- at least in my games.