Game 1-2, 8 handed, 600 effective

Preflop:
Folds to MP (LAG) open 8
Hero button (TAG) raise to 25, Kd Qd
Blinds fold
MP Villan reraise to 60
Hero call

Flop K66 (rainbow), check check

Turn Qh, 2 hearts on the board
Villan Check
Hero bets 60
Villan reraise 190

Hero?

Pre feels like spew without specific reads. 4bet ranges are generally so incredible nutted that I doubt it can be profitable.

Is this live 1/2? If so, I hate calling a 4-bet with KQs, and would only sometimes 3-bet with it (though being this deep definitely leans me towards the 3-bet).

AP, I assume the K is not a heart, giving AhKh top and bottom with a FD? If so, and if V is laggy enough, I could see a call and call most non-A/non heart rivers here. If the K is a heart, barring any special dynamics, this is a pretty easy fold, and I would expect V to have AA or a FH pretty much always. Frankly, even if the K is not a heart that really only opens one combo that we beat, and aside from total spazz, the remaining 8 combos crush us.

Agree that pf is spew. His raise on the turn is either foolhardy (you pretty much have a K or Q in your hand) or he has 2 pair beat. Folding to punish myself for making the mistake pf.

More info on V -- is he a maniac LAG who is blasting off or a thinking LAG who probably has you crushed. Does he know you are TAG? Does he think you have a fold button?

Looks like a fold or shove if we don't believe him. A call would create a $500 pot with $350 effective, so we'd have to expect a shove on the river if we call. I haven't seen that many people at 1-2 that will 4-bet with air pf. Without more info on V, even if we give him credit for a much wider range here, seems like a fold to me.

If he's really a lag and has a 4bet range outside of AA/KK then KQs vs this sizing this deep IP is fine to flat.

Would like to know more about his post flop play and how he might view you.

His line looks really strong, but I think I call once and see what he does on the river.

Pre seems fine.

Turn is pretty weird spot. I don’t really expect to see AA take this line all that often. You also lose to KK/QQ, which isn’t very likely due to your hands blocking properties. He can have some flush draws as well. I’m calling turn and calling non-heart rivers.

I can see V having AA here. Barring more accurate reads, I can definitely see someone at low stakes see AA as the nuts here on a paired board, as they "put you on AK".

So that's what, 4 combos of AA, 2 combos of suited KQ 1 combo of KK and 1 combo of QQ, maybe AhKh also?

I can see a LAG 4 betting all of those hands this deep.

Put that in an equity calc and see what you get, but I think it's going to be a call. Personally, I would check back turn for pot control and bet/call river with a brick.

But now that you're here, I would call and then check back or call river.

Noob perspective:

I hate playing opponents like this. I have no idea if they're 4-betting light because they think you're 3-betting wide because they know their image is LAGgy, or if they really have a premium hand.

Checking flop followed by check-raising turn, I just have no idea what they're representing -- maybe slow-playing AA or KK. Or cautiously playing QQ and then check-raising after turning a boat.

There's only 1 combo each of KK and QQ, and 6 of AA that beat you, plus I suppose he could be blasting off with 6x pre-flop. And if he's doing this with 6x, he could be doing it with any manner of garbage, maybe not believing your story and thinking you're just trying to buy the pot on the turn after getting checked to twice.

As played, I think this is a call for me on the turn and see what happens on the river. He may just give up.


Pre-flop, is it too nitty to just call the opening bet with KQs? Getting 4-bet is really uncomfortable, you're almost certainly behind and possibly crushed unless he has 4-bet bluffs in his quiver.

On the flop, I would have bet there with top pair good kicker in position. Why the check?

I agree that pre seems fine. Maybe posters that say it’s not play in super tight games where LAGs VPIP is 20% instead of 30%+?

As played I call and evaluate. He could “read” weakness since you check backed the flop. If he has QQ or KK then it’s a cooler. If he has AA then wp by him.

Others have suggested this above, but I think it is maybe too nitty. My reasoning below:

If LAG is opening top 30% of hands and 4-betting top 3% (QQ+,AK,AQs) then we’re only going to see a 4bet 3/10=10% of the time. Getting 4bet is a rare event, so we shouldn’t worry about it too much. Usually the LAG is gonna call, and he’s probably calling too wide.

Getting 4bet does suck, but we can even profitably call a 4bet against a very small raise size like the near minclick used in this hand.

If LAG is 4betting even narrower ranges then we profit more because we more often get to keep the range advantage postflop due to being preflop aggressor and so we get to realize our equity more often.

If LAG is 4-betting wider ranges it does suck overall, but then we can more profitably call against the 4bet.

A bit more info on V, he is a LAG maniac, seen him call 4bet pre with K6o , flop 66x and won big hand

turn: Hero calls

River: 10 (non-heart)
V all in, Hero calls
V shows 10 10

This would be a specific read and relevant information..

Based on my experience, I really do think that AA almost never checks twice on flop and turn. If he cbets half his AA on flop, then he gets to turn with 3 combos of AA. If he bets half of the remaining AA on turn, then he’s only left with 1.5 combos of AA that will check twice. This is probably an overestimate…I think AA will take the betting lead on each street well more than 50% frequency.

When a player takes a weird line and they aren’t repping much value (well less than 3 combos IMO), and we have one of the best possible hands we can have, we do have to just call down IMO. Even w/o the read that opponent is a maniac.

I agree with others above that OP might have included a few more reads on Villain to give us a sense that he isn’t just 4betting AA/KK. Then we could have had less discussion on preflop, which is generally the least interesting street in any HH.

However, it’s sort of a catch-22: If OP had included the K6o HH it would have ruined the discussion because every decision point would have been easy. Knowing the exact amount of background information to give in any post is an art form.

Is it? He's trying to figure out the right thing to do in this specific specific against this specific villain. Why would we not want to have as much info as possible?

Is he going to play the next time against this villain and purposefully choose to forget the K6o hand ever happened?

I think it depends on whether the goal of a post is to inspire interesting discussion (which I think has developed in this thread), to provide general guidance on how to play against LAGs who may not be maniacs, or to provide guidance on how to play against LAG maniacs.

If we knew this V was a LAG maniac going in, I guess everyone would have responded “LOL call down” and there wouldn’t have been much to take away from this thread. But IDK.

I do think finding the right balance of background information is something of an art form. Some posters on this forum (hyperknit comes to mind) provide minimal reads in their posts. And I actually appreciate that because it allows us to discuss general principles that may apply in other spots against other villains.

But I am sure others disagree with me and would appreciate full reads.

With this info, no brainer gii. If he has K6 again, more power to him (although I know he didn't).

Ah, OK, so he does have 6x in his range, but that still means he has a lot of garbage in his range and your call is profitable.

Ridiculously unlucky river. Can't do anything about that.

Yes .. Without some history that V is maniac PF and tunes it in post, then the Board has pretty much made it's mind up for you. Just gotta grin and bear it in these spots. I was anticipating AJh myself. GL

From my live poker experience 4betting calling with QKs on a nl200 table is not profitable like 95% of times.

If he trully is a completaly maniac i think its a 5bet/ fold or fold decision i would never calling 4bet with QK pre. The hugest mistake in the hand is preflop.


As played i call turn and reevaluate river he might be playing AK same way. Im calling river if the flush doesnt complete knowing that info about him

This.

4b pot at 1/2 this is check and check and check again.