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TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg

12-11-2013 , 11:09 PM
Table: "Average" 1/2 table. Wednesday evening 5:30ish. A few short stacks, but it's mostly irrelevant for the hand.

Hero: I've been at the table for 45 minutes or less. I opened the first hand I sat down, didn't get a caller. Opened 2-3 times since then. cBet the flop, and took it down for 1-2 of them, didn't get a caller in 1, and check folded the flop in one. Bought in full ($300) but I haven't done whole lot special so far. It's hard to say how V2 views me. I've certainly been known to lag it up at any time, at any table, at any point, depending on what's needed, but in the last 2-3 months I've been very tag. His opinion of me could go either way.

V1: When I sat down he has $50, lost a few $'s, and got down to $30. At that point he opened to $10, got 3bet by V2 on the button to $25, everyone folded back to V1 who jammed ($5 more...) and V2 called. V2 showed QQ and V1 showed AJo. V1 wins with 2p on the flop that holds. He seems a bit aggressive pre flop, but mostly with high cards. He opened two times since then, also to $10, and eventually showed down KJo from MP, and EP and showed down AQo the he checked to the river. ($120)

V2: Def a reg. I don't play with him that much as he doesn't give a lot of action post flop. So, I tend to not be at his tables. He tends to buy in full, I usually see him with a good stack of chips in front of him. Even keel, never seen him visibly on tilt, doesn't open a whole lot. Understand pot odds, IO, and most of the other concepts that a reg should. I don't know a whole lot about his 3bet range as I try not to play with him. Does limp fairly often from LP, but never from EP. Rarely limp/folds. Plans to call if he's limping. When raising post flop, he almost always 'has it'.($295)

Hero:
1 limp
V1 opens to $10
V2 flats on the button
Hero 3bets to $40 with TT
V1 thinks for a bit and flats
V2 thinks for 10 seconds or so and makes it $120
Hero?

I've got no clue where I am. After the previous hand, I expect V2 to raise with JJ+, but he could be doing something weird? If he views me as squeezing can he make this play with with worse here for sure, esp IP, but I don't know if this V thinks that way or not. Please advise.
TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg Quote
12-11-2013 , 11:26 PM
I fold. Sometimes you see people do this with 88 through JJ but I doubt this is someone that's gonna overvalue small PPs pre flop(although this is 1/2). More often than not I think he has QQ to AA that he wanted to get cute preflop with the fishy player but once you 3bet he changed his plan.

Also I don't like 3 betting with TT as this essentially turns our hand into a bluff post flop. I'd rather call for set value.

Last edited by Bartie; 12-11-2013 at 11:26 PM. Reason: Accidentally a word
TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg Quote
12-11-2013 , 11:26 PM
I think the 3bet was a mistake, what are you doing to a 4bet? This needs to be asked and answered before you made the bet. This is not a hand like A10 that we might 3bet light out of the blinds and you don't mind folding to a 4bet out of position.

Now, by folding tens to a 4bet we lose our value of flopping a set, and 1010 itself can have showdown value in a non 3bet pot.
TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg Quote
12-11-2013 , 11:26 PM
you said already in your post. he almost always has it. it's like super snap fold he made it easy on you. I don't like 3betting 1010 in the first place in this scenario vs described players. kindof a waste of the hand.
TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg Quote
12-11-2013 , 11:46 PM
The problem is that V2's range is very narrow, but you're sitting in the middle of it. Maybe something like 99-QQ and AK. He's almost never calling AA or KK after a raise, then 4betting you. You're a very slight underdog to it. It comes down to the FE you have with a shove. If he can let go JJ in this situation, I'd shove. If not, then calling puts you in a RIO situation. Most of the time, the flop will suck for you. It would help a bit if we knew if you were OOP or IP. Given the information we have, I like a shove better than a call.

As others said, I like flatting better pf, especially if you are going to be OOP in absolute terms. The reality is that you will be IP in relative terms on the flop. Nobody expects a caller in the blinds to bet. Therefore, you get to see what everyone else does before you have to do anything.
TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg Quote
12-11-2013 , 11:47 PM
For the record, I fully plan to call off/reshove vs any action from V1. I think he has a lot of worse hands in his opening range, his 4bet jamming range. And I think he flats my 3bet with plenty of worse hands. It was for fat value vs him.

I didn't expect the flat/4bet from V2. Which is why I posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
It would help a bit if we knew if you were OOP or IP.
I guess that I forgot this part in the OP. I'm in the SB in this hand.
TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg Quote
12-11-2013 , 11:52 PM
He's almost never calling AA or KK after a raise, then 4betting you

im really not too sure about that. I think he's flatting pretty nutted in the first place and if he thinks hero is loose enough there are a lot of flop he won't get action on that will stack off preflop. Like for example 1010 jq high flops sometimes he shuts down. Also ak is getting it in on heros end, jj qq, pretty sure he wan'ts you to call off here all day.
TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg Quote
12-12-2013 , 02:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartie
I fold. Sometimes you see people do this with 88 through JJ but I doubt this is someone that's gonna overvalue small PPs pre flop(although this is 1/2). More often than not I think he has QQ to AA that he wanted to get cute preflop with the fishy player but once you 3bet he changed his plan.

Also I don't like 3 betting with TT as this essentially turns our hand into a bluff post flop. I'd rather call for set value.

I was going to say close to the same thing regarding just flatting 1010 in this spot since we are OOP and we have set value. That would of been the optimal play. As played I think it's feasible that he has a big hand but it just seems really odd to me that he flatted then reraised. I just don't know if I am 100% convinced he has it, it seems more like AK or AQ any hand he would rather just take down the pot now with.

I think if I am in a gambling mood I stick it in and hope I'm sigh called and not snap called. His line just seems a bit strange and when it doesn't make sense I am inclined to call. I think the biggest issue with shoving is you have no real fold equity and you are taking a small edge. It wouldn't be terrible to wait for a better spot, but my gut instinct based on his line is to shove and ride the variance train.
TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg Quote
12-12-2013 , 02:11 AM
OP it makes a world of difference what position v1s open came from...the early his position, the more he will flat with big pairs and if it's in LP he generally will raise

so if v1 was UTG I would fold it, and consider making another play the further from UTG he is

I don't blame you at all for trying to iso v1, I think re-raising from the SB is pretty standard, calling in position mostly

as venice said, it's a close spot and should be near a coinflip if he's a good player, but calling is really bad here because of RIO.

It's close between fold and jam. For me it would depend on where v1 raised from

Last edited by attentionnoone; 12-12-2013 at 02:17 AM.
TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg Quote
12-12-2013 , 09:13 AM
The flat/4b is almost always a premium hand. I fold this pretty quickly. It could be different if V2 is a spaz but you described him as solid.
TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg Quote
12-12-2013 , 12:03 PM
[QUOTE=iraisetoomuch;41373654]Table: "Average" 1/2 table

V2: Def a reg. I don't play with him that much as he doesn't give a lot of action post flop. So, I tend to not be at his tables. He tends to buy in full, I usually see him with a good stack of chips in front of him. Even keel, never seen him visibly on tilt, doesn't open a whole lot. Understand pot odds, IO, and most of the other concepts that a reg should. I don't know a whole lot about his 3bet range as I try not to play with him. Does limp fairly often from LP, but never from EP. Rarely limp/folds. Plans to call if he's limping. When raising post flop, he almost always 'has it'.($295)

Off topic but this guy sounds too good to be a $1/$2 reg. Most of the $1/$2 and $2/$5 regs I see are familiar with the concepts but don't really understand them and their games are more heuristically driven than cognitively.

You may want to start sitting at his table to learning more about his game and advance your learning curve by figuring out ways to beat him.

Maybe Ed Miller's Playing the Player book will give you a few ideas.
TT from the SB against a shorty and decent reg Quote

      
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