What this thread is:

• For those of you that have played for a living, or are playing for a living (you actually pay your bills and support yourself), you can post your experiences and stories here. Good or bad. Educate those who are seriously thinking about going full time.
  
• For those of you that are thinking about playing for a living you can ask the people that have or are playing for a living questions about playing full time.
  
• For the spectators, go ahead and ask questions, but make sure they are good legit questions.
  
  

What this thread is not:

• It is not a blog or a place for HH's. You can start a PG&C for that.
  
• It is not an advertising service for your coaching gig. There is a forum for that.
  
• It is not a well. Questions should be about playing for a living only.
  
• If you are not or have not played for a living DO NOT answer questions or solicit advice.
  
• Do not troll this thread. A ban will be given to those who troll or disobey the rules of the thread.

If the pro's want to do a short background about themselves (stakes they play, how long they've been playing, etc) feel free. I'd almost recommend it. You don't have to give your name or where you play. I know most people like to stay low key.

Great idea for a containment thread.

I'll shoot out a few questions...

1. Where do you (the professional) see yourself 10 years from now? Will you still be playing poker?

2. Do you think raising a family is possible on a LLSNL "salary?"

3. Do you have any interest or profit accumulating investments outside of poker?

Excellent!

However, we aware of the survivor ship bias.

1) What's the maximum % of your bank roll that should be use to pay for recurrent payments/bills? In other works, when would you say your bills are eating your bank roll?

2) How do you manage that % when you are running bad/break even for a few months?

3) Tips to dealer? How much/frequency?

4) In how many casinos do you guys play? If more than one, how do you handle your housing (renting for short periods, etc)?

Thanks

Just a few questions:

1. What are the lowest stakes that making a living is possible at? Seems difficult to make a living grinding out live 1/2 but maybe someone in here is doing it and proves me wrong. I figure grinding 2/5 and up is a lot easier cuz of the higher winrate

2. What kind of hours do you (the pro) typically play in a week on average? 30+? 40+? etc.

3. I'm assuming it helps a lot to have a poker room/casino near your house/in your city. The closest one to me is 45 mins away unfortunately. Is it feasible to make a living grinding at a place 45 mins away when you must consider gas/transportation costs every day?

Thanks for starting this thread!

I think it would also be helpful if any body here tried (with no success) to become pro, and now have a regular job and play part time/ just for fun.

It would give us another angle of this story... basically to tell us the things that didn't work for them.

1 year. I was sick 1 out of 15 days. Not sniffly, tired, bored: I was bona fide sick. Cardrooms are cesspools and you had better accept it.

I think you'd get a lot of negative stories out of that and it wouldn't be fair to the people who do play pro and have a good experience with it. If you want to read about burnt out tried to be pro read my well, check out Ashley's well, or visit bip!'s PG&C thread ("Flint Tropics..."). Wells are linked in the Best of thread.

2/5, sure, no problem. 1/2 it'd be a huge struggle, maybe impossible given the health care costs involved in having a child/children, to make a better living at it than you could working a regular job such as construction or something else at least semi-skilled.

As contrasted to raising a family, making a living for yourself is definitely possible at 1/2. But you have to realize it's going to be like any other entry level job, and you're going to live in a cheap apartment with a roommate, eat lots of ramen and generally live like an impoverished college kid until you can move up.

All of the above is cost of living dependent, game structure and rake dependent. My basis for answering is a low cost of living area (Las Vegas) with max 150bb buy in low rake games (10% up to $4). Adjust my answers to your local environment. For example, I would think that given the rake, structure and cost of living in LA, that it would literally be impossible to support yourself in those 1/2 games.

I'll take a shot here....

Some of the topic's of interest seem to be:

1) Where do I see myself in 10 years?

In my case,I won't be playing poker full time. However I think its safe to assume the answer will differ from person to person.

2) Can you raise a family on the earnings from Low Stakes poker?

Great question. The simple answer is no, or maybe at best.

Yes, you *might*be able to scrape by and "earn" enough for basic living in the modern world, but raising a family is a lot more than just making some money. Playing low stakes doesn't provide much income, no insurance, no job security, and a LOT of time away from your family trying to make enough $ to live on.
The most VALUABLE thing you can give anyone, is your time. Think of your own best friend or closest family member, are you close/best friends because one of you has money, or is because you've spent a lot of time together and bonded. For god sake, spend time actually *raising* your family.

3) Investments away from the poker table?

Yes. You're a fool if you don't.

Think of it this way; there is only one of you and only so many hours in the day. So at best, as an individual with only one source of income you've limited yourself to working for wages.

I have invested in real estate and would recommend it to anyone willing to do the work. The long term residual income provides year-around steady income, growth potential, tax breaks, a conservative place to park your money, and add's stability to the un-stable world of a full time poker player.

4) Percent of my bankroll I'm willing to risk, run bad/good?

I guess I have never thought about my the % of my BR I'm willing to risk. I realize there are "rule-of-thumb" formula's written in books. I may be wrong, but I don't agree to any of that and have never given it any thought.

My thought process is centered around being a winning player. Its important to have accurate long term data and KNOW how much you can expect to win/loose at the stakes you're playing. And honestly, if you're a long term proven winning player the thoughts of "how much am I willing to risk" will never enter your mind.
Furthermore, winning players need less BR than break-even or losing players. The math is simple, winning players are always earning more money so they are always moving forward w/ confidence that they'll make more everyday.

5) Dealer tips, message girls, living big, ect, ect....

Make no mistake, playing poker full time is a business. Just as any other small business you need to make wise and prudent choices. You need a business plan, a marketing plan, and sound money management.

Living big, drinking, women, drugs, spending flashy....that's for new players, tourist on vacation, part time players that wanna put up a front and pretend that they're someone there not.

This is a business. Use some common since and choose the best way to operate your small business.

6) Hours and win rates...

The hours that full time players work vary greatly. Some people have great work ethic and make methodical choices of when, where, and how many hours to play, others seem to have no direction or plan.

Last year I logged 1746 hours at the table. I mainly play low & mid stakes NL, $2/5, $5/10 & occasionally $10/20.

Win rates vary greatly. I can assure you that the majority of the numbers posted on this site seem exaggerated to me.

...

Playing poker is a tough job, dam tough! Some talented players can beat the game, but it takes so much more.
You have to be a great money manager, the emotional up & down swings ruin a lot of people, the temptations of living big are everywhere. Without exaggeration I can think of 40-60 people per year that I see come to Vegas w/ the big dreams, some last a few weeks, some a few months, but almost all of them are gone within a year. And I don't blame them, who likes to work gobs of hours and still live in poverty, while being surrounded by all of the fancy Vegas stuff. Kindly keep in mind that there are only a handful of players in the world that have made the big time, ...I ain't one of them and chances are you won't be either.

I know this is a very personal question, but may I ask what you make per annum? I'd like to know what the "average" 2/5 grinder makes...and I can hardly trust the bragging of most players. I would be very happy with a PM if you don't feel comfortable posting it in the forum.

I realize I'm a bit breaking the rules here, but the average 2/5 grinder loses money. If you're going to make a living playing poker, you have to be a lot better than average. My personal opinion is that one shouldn't judge whether to become a pro based on what other people can do. You should base it on what you can do. If you don't know, it makes no difference what other people can do.

Fair enough

1) No. I'm done in a month. However, at no point was that ever true in the 6 years I was a pro. As to will I still be playing poker... right now the answer is hell ****ing no. Imagine going back to your old desk job on weekends. However, there's a good chance this will change once the wear of grinding has worn off.

2) Yes, in the strictest sense. Possible is possible is possible. People raise families on 40-60k all over the US and do just fine. For what I personally want for my kids and my family, considering my income potential in other areas, it's not.

3) I used to, and if I was going to stay the course it would be what I'd look into.

1) It's dependent. I like to think of my bankroll and savings as two separate entities. When savings get low, I work more and spend less. I like to have a years worth of expenses saved plus a workable bankroll.

2) Bankroll can absorb run bad. I've had like..... two or three losing months in a 6 year career. I don't have a lot of experience here.

3) 1 buck for every hand that flops... an extra buck or two if I win a big pot and they keep the stacks up for me.

4) Just one really.

1. All dependent on what you're willing to live on. I'm not willing to live on what you can make at 1/2, you may vary

2. 30 or so... when I'm being good. I've been slacking like hell lately with my retirement upcoming

3. Of course, assuming your car gets a decent mileage and you can play at a decent stake.

Win rates are almost assuredly exaggerated here. There's no recourse to check win rates, and there's no way to check. My win rate this year is 45/hr, and overall is like 50-60 at 2/5. I've run like aids this month though. Online, it was in the hundreds. I don't have a way to check anymore, but some years were around 250, later years were significantly less, but still ~100 or more.

First of all, I live in Russia. A lot of things are different here, living costs are different, rake is different, the field is different. So anything I post from my expierence should be taken with a grain of salt.

Second, I can't say I'm am/was a PRO. I'm studying in arguably the best University you can find around here. I was paying my bills for a couple of years playing poker, but I've never taken it up as a full-time job.

1. I'm not planning to be playing poker full-time. For me it just takes too much. I am planning to be playing winning poker at higher limits, but not as my main job.

2. I'd say Yes, but this is very country-specific. 5$k/mnth in US and 5$k/mnth in Russia is two very different stories.

3. Not in the moment but I've used too when I've played a lot.

1) Savings =/= Bankroll. I was not obeying this rule a lot and I've paid for it. I went into an emotional downward spiral a year ago following a break-up with my significant other, I was wise enough not to play in such condition, but was not wise enough not to preserve my bankroll.

3) I do not tip.

2) & 4) - nothing worthy to write.

I think I'll always play poker, but how much of my income is based on it will hopefully go down drastically.


Not safely. A lot of poker players really like to live one big downswing/ life problem away from busto. It's not safe and definitely not smart. If you're raising a kid and a family I think you should have significant amounts of money saved up for a rainy day, that's hard to do on an LLSNL salary.

I feel like everyone should.



0. I'm a bankroll nit. When I moved to China I had a US poker roll, my life roll, my online roll and a Chinese roll. I tried not to let them mix at all and tracked all of them separately as well. That's an extreme bit of nittery, and having just a poker roll and bankroll are fine, but they need to be separate. Variance is going to its toll on your poker roll as is, if you aren't making enough to keep them separate you'll have problems.

Keep them separate, and keep them both much larger than they need to be.

Yes. Don't really think it's questionable and pretty bad not to tip. At home games you should really be tipping a lot. It's their job to bring in the fish, and they don't owe you a seat. They're giving you a lot of money you should give some back.


I play in several cities and casinos. It's best to make friends in different places so you have a place to crash and offer them the same. Also helps for finding the best games.

Good 1/2 home games is probably fine. At most casinos 2/5.

Changes so often depending on what games are running. I'd say I average 20-30.

Need to ask yourself that. It's probably not worth the time.

How do you handle taxes?

APD Mod edit:

Let's make this question - Are taxes handled just like any other "bill" where you set money aside? So if you book a win, would you put like XX% aside of that win? What happens when you lose, do you pull money out of the tax money put aside? What does tax money management look like as far as money in and out of tax roll?

If you're doing taxes right you're paying an estimated tax each quarter

ike - you're paying federal, state, and FICA, right?

And maybe city since you live in a city that may tax income?

No city but yes to everything else

3. I think this is far and away the most important thing you can do. Taking poker profit and investing, letting your money work for you, done properly is essential.

as to 1 and 2, I don't have kids so I couldn't say but I'd assume it would be extremely difficult. Ten years from now I'll still be playing poker in some capacity though I'm not sure how much or how little.

Some questions:

1. As a pro, what element of poker do you feel took the most to learn and properly incorporate into your game while you were learning/moving up?

2. How many hours do you feel are necessary in an average week to consider yourself a "pro"

3. What is the most difficult aspect of being a pro?

4. What percentage of cash vs. tournament do you play as a pro?

Thank you guys for all of your responses.


I guess my question touchs two points at the same time. One is living bank roll and the other is poker bank roll. However, if you make your living from poker, then your winnings make your poker bank roll can grow, but how would you mantain/grow your living bank roll (unless you have some residual/other income you support that)? That's why I thought about a %.

For expample, IMO is safe to say that a better than just good 1/2 grinder (but not that good to make it right away to 2/5) can make around $20/hr. Playing 30/hrweek =that's around $2,400. With this monthly average, like mpethybrige said, is non different than any other entry job. Therefore, 1) may be very hard to build a poker bank roll and move up 2) Like Bluegrass said, you may be very well one downswing/life problem from busto.

How was your practice of the following habits?

A. germ control

1. Hand washing in general, and specifically before eating
2. Never touching the face while playing

B. immune system maintenance

3. Nutrition (vitamins and minerals)
4. Water
5. Sleep
6. Exercise