The preponderance of people I know do not play 2k hours, or even play/study for 2k hours. Nor do I. Unless you are the rare person who is wired in such a way that poker is perpetually interesting to you, it will become drudgery. And, I agree, this is one reason why most fail.

That's why I think, if this is long term, you should find other ways to make money. There are other ways to make money gambling, though they have pit falls. Things sort of related to gambling include, extreme coupons and life nit stuff, and buying things at auctions to sell online.

It's interesting that you bring up this point, since it was a big motivator in my decision to try semi-pro. I was in Vegas regularly for business/conferences, and was always a bit shocked by how soft the games were. But that's not real world, and catching the convention crowd is a far cry from grinding out a decent hourly. It's also still the reason I'll grind really long sessions when I'm back in Vegas (because f*ck going to that corporate conference....we're in Vegas!), but don't bother trying to get in any type of real volume outside of that.

I'd be very interested to hear how the pro's are doing in today's games.

Did the games get harder? How much harder?
What are some standard win rates at 1/2, 1/3, 2/5, 5/10?
Are there more pro's now than a few years ago?
Are the non-pro regs really getting a lot better at the game?

1) Yes they got harder the last 3 years. How much harder? Not sure we can quantify that. 20% harder? Who knows? What I do know is a good pro should get better faster than the recs so they shouldve been be able to at the very minimum maintain their win rates. The best pros have increased their win rates from 3 years ago.

2) Standard win rates? No such thing. The best players at their stakes should be able to hit about 10BB/hr. If you're doing better than that, start thinking about moving up for sure (assuming you have the bankroll for it).

A really good 2/5 player can go back to 1/2 and beat it for 15BBs+, but he shouldnt really be playing 1/2 unless its the only game available.

3) More pros than 3 years ago? Hmmm. This is just a wild guess but Id say its about the same.

4) Yes, a lot of the regs are getting better at the game. That goes back to question #1.

most people arent, generally speaking, bumbling idiots. after playing enough, even bad players will start to realize certain things in the games that have changed over the years and adjust.

the easiest example to see is cbetting. bad PFR will bet basically any flop (i can't tell you how many times i've seen a PFR bet a flop like 976 into 4 people OOP and fold a hand like AK/AQ/KQ when raised), not realizing there is a nuance to it. but because "all the good players do this", they have followed.

the other side of this coin is not folding on the flop to a cbet. which i see less players do, but on occasion you do see a show down where V called a flop cbet with no pair or draw and just wonder what their plan was. their plan was: everyone cbets every flop, so i need to call with 6 high on KJ9.

To echo everyone else, the games are getting tougher, but not by much. The extent is market specific and ties into the 3rd question. Large metros such as Vegas, LA, and from what I hear to a lesser extent SFL have seen an increase in international grinders coming for their live cut. At first it was a 5/10+ issue, but now even the 100bb cap 5/5 games in my market have more and more Euros and South Americans in them. A few years ago there was a team of Brits backed by a single individual grinding the 5/10 Commerce games. Now, it seems like it's just more of self funded groups of two or three. All this to say, it's much more common to have a foreign pro or two at the table than a few years ago... pending where you are. Northern California for example, really doesn't seem to have this issue. I imagine if you're in a flyover state, the games are more or less the same. One constant that does seem to hold true everywhere is that higher stakes are disappearing. Many smaller places rarely get 5/10 going nowadays.

Win-rates, I think ~10bigs/hour is certainly crushing it but attainable for those who put the work in, especially in 1/3 and below. However, the slow pace of live poker & variance can make it tough to gauge. I certainly consider myself much more a student than a master. Over my past 2k hrs, I though I was crushing it, nearing 9bb/hr playing in the afternoons and evening. However, the most recent 500 hrs were BE and my rate dropped to about 7bb/hr. From what I gauge, the majority of winners in LLSNL aren't beating the game by much. A studious rec player, even one who puts in ~500 hrs/year won't have the study time or experience to go above $25/hr long term in my $5 blind games, but soft-ass 1/2 or 1/3 played during prime hours could yield more bb/hr given average rake... simply because people make an enormous amount of errors preflop & post. There's a certain high volume poaster with a solid sample & win-rate at 1/3 who plays extremely face-up & nitty. It seems that once you get to 2/5 and above, people play a bit tighter & spew/punt less, though other than learning to fold, they haven't picked up other tactics. Ed Miller's "The Course" covers this fairly well.

I would agree. Most have not changed their style - raising ranges by position, positional awareness (lack of), 3b ranges, sizing all remain static. A non-pro, serious rec would have improved dramatically over this pool.

S. Florida does have a lot of foreign pros coming in also. Lots of Brazilians, but also Russians and Euro players as well.

Sounds like you guys are on the wrong coast. You have to go where the Chinese are playing and avoid where the euros are. Even though I haven't been playing for long, Ive heard the games in Vancouver have gotten bigger and easier over the years but there is still a lack of mid stakes other than weekends. Im sure there are some insane home games out there that are mega juicy.

As far as the OP goes I turned pro last month and for the last 5 months I am constantly around the 10-12bb/h monthly and right on track this month as well. The problem is that I am playing 1/3 and I dont like long sessions so even though Im killing it I am still not making a pile of money due to not playing many hours. Within the next 6 months I will move cities and play 2/5 assuming things stay the same. I have an abundance of free time to do other things I love. Not working 10 hours a day is really weird but I am getting used to it.

The games aren't harder if you know how to and you are capable of adjusting. That is the key word.

I havn't noticed if there are more pros today than there were 5 years ago but a "pro" comes in many different varieties. There are weak tight pros, super laggy pros (who are often in for several buy ins at times), new pros, old pros such as OMC's, and everything in between. There are even a lot of pros who's wives work high paying careers while the pro is playing poker all day (so theyre probably break even to small winners). Again, it's just a matter of adjusting to people.

I would definitely agree the recs are getting better in the game which is probably due to all the popular training sites and youtube but it's very common to see them using concepts the wrong way or in the wrong spots (like 3betting A9s from the blinds against a tight nit's UTG raise while using terrible sizing, etc.). So to answer your question I'm doing pretty good in today's game and better than last year.











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If it's not harder (absolute sense), why would someone need to adjust (relative sense)?

Doesn't sound like there is much difference between a "pro" and just any other "player" in general by your definition.

Anyone that isn't a "pro" is getting better in these games.

I looked couple times, but I didn't see a question asking whether you are doing pretty good or not compare to last year. I am confused as to what question you are answering.

If I am reading all this correctly, you are basically saying that:

And yet...

So the only logical deduction I can gather from your word jumble is that pros are getting worse, assuming that there are only two categories of players: pros and recs, hence the game has not become harder. And that it's not harder is implied by the notion that you are doing better this year than last.

My normal room is an underground room, but the players have not gotten any better over the years. Some are already good, and some have gotten better, but the majority play the same way they played three or four years ago. Exactly the same every night. It's amazing -- and awesome.

When I go to casinos, players seem pretty much the same at 1/2 and 1/3 everywhere -- a mixed bag, but for the most part in the evenings, play is pretty standard/bad/passive and it's not difficult to win at these levels depending on rake.

Or maybe I've just gotten way better

I am no pro, but these are my observations.

Any recent stories with live pro/semipro who started 2017/2018/2019?

https://lowstakesgrinding.wordpress.com/

Scrolled through that blog's first page, few things to note:

1. Too many plain chip stack pictures - none of them chip p0rn.

2. Rest of content are filled with screenshots of HH notes taken on iPhone, and unfortunately most of them are about as useful as describing the weather of that day.

3. Rest are filled with essentially commentary of said description of weather of that day.

I suppose stories of LLSNL are indeed as plain as one might suspect from LLSNL.

Thanks, it is good read

http://sevencard2003.blogspot.com/

I started playing part time in 2017 and full time in mid 2018. I primarily play 2/5, have played some 5/10, and a few sessions T/20. If you wanna ask or pm me any questions then fire away. 2017 was a rough transition, 2018 was solid, this year is going very well

Regarding hours, I will probably put in about 1600 this year (not including studying). Thats probably slightly above average for the pros I know, especially since I study more than most, but I hope to put in a lot more next year.

Where do you play?
Do you play online and if so does it help your life play?
Do you study with GTO( PIO, Snowie, RangeConverter, GTO=, etc.)
What times do you play and why?
What changes you made to your game in 2019 comparing to your game in 2017?

Thanks, a lot.