speaking of spreadsheets

https://theringer.com/this-teen-know...562#.r6yy8m5nu

whats your biggest downswing at 2/5 and how many losing months a year do you have now? i imagine you average ~ 1 losing month per year at 2/5.
i imagine if you played 5/T full time, you would average ~3 losing months per year, but there'd be some years that you would have 4-5 losing months, and your biggest downswing at 5/T would have to be at least 5-6 times whatever your biggest downswing would be at 2/5.
psychologically - i imagine it would be hard to make that transition. once you get used to having very little swings and 90% winning months i bet it would be tough to leave that.

Very honest write up. I have been lucky to run good so far @ 2-5. Used to consider going "pro" in the past, but decided against it for a variety of reasons - skills, $, stability and so forth. Still like to read and reinforce my decision here.

Why do you call 1-2 a cesspool though? If it's same as 2-5, then just the smaller amounts won makes it tortuously slow? Or was the rake too high at that level to have a reasonable opportunity to move up? I actually won't mind moving down to 1-3 nl to smoothen out the swings but no viable option near me at this time.

Hello all twoplustwo forum goers! I am not sure what I am trying to get out of this thread, but I will see what happens.

I am giving some serious thought to putting in a two week notice at my job and doing some serious grinding down at Foxwoods casino. My job isn't anything special... 13.00/hour, 40 hours per week. Whoop whoop...

My bankroll would be ~20,000... My living situation is literally no bills and if for some reason I fail, I can just find a job. Back to the miserable existence that is low wage garbage jobs.

I have tested many times if I am good enough to play 1/2 and 2/5 NL and come out ahead. I have taken all my vacation time the past few years and spent all of the time at the table. 48+ hours sessions... 24+ hour sessions... 10 days at a time... Make anywhere from -500 to +2500 per session. The usual 2% miracles for 500$ on the turn kind of stuff... My best run was about 20,000 in a month...

I have a few issues.

1.) I lack confidence in myself. (Might be because of #2)

2.) My family is very unsupportive of poker. (I finance myself fully, but when I play cards, they make it sound like I am a degenerate gambler that needs help. They don't understand what poker is.)


The games down at Foxwoods seem very profitable both in playerbase and the structure. There is NO TIME... 1/2 has a 300$ max and 2/5 has a 500$ max. Most regs are obvious in how they play. There is a lot of bingo style play at these tables where there is very loose limping preflop, easily exploitable by playing tight and collecting a ton of dead money preflop against one opponent to the flop. The weekdays are mostly like this. The weekends vary based on if the ultra donkeys or drunks come to your table. So the weekend is all about finding the right table. I just feel its a profitable game if you are experienced, disciplined, and are in the right living situation to be able to put in the time needed for poker. I have all three of those things and a reasonable enough bankroll to see where it takes me.

As for my experience, I have been playing for 13 years. Read a ton of poker books.

Professional No-Limit Hold 'em: Volume I (Miller/Mehta/Flynn)
Small Stakes No-Limit Hold'em (Miller/Mehta/Flynn)

Just to name a few.

Foxwoods is merely a 40 minute drive from my house and they offer 2 free nights per week Sunday-Thursday if you play a reasonable amount.


What do you all think?

Here's a couple of things to keep in mind when going to play "full time" at Foxwoods.

1. You need to be brutally honest with yourself. When I see someone say they have "no bills," had a $20k month but only have a $20k bankroll, my first thought is what happened to the rest of the money. You have some bills. If your family is supporting you by giving you housing, car, cell phone etc., and they disapprove of poker, they aren't going to keep financing you. Frankly, they shouldn't be financing you now. In addition, the money went to "something." If you blow off money when you're ahead, a poker lifestyle isn't going to drive you to being more disciplined.

2. Foxwoods itself is under several challenges. Twin Rivers has put in a poker room. If NJ puts in casinos near NYC, a lot of the traffic going to Foxwoods is going to go there, just as what happened in AC. And if the Wynn Casino ever is built outside of Boston, they will pull a lot of traffic as well. You may face having to move or travel further to find games.

3. Finally, if you want to proceed, I'd suggest doing some extensive reading in the Foxwoods thread in the Poker room sub forum of the Like Casino Poker forum. Lattimer is a regular at Foxwoods and a mod of that forum. I'm sure he'd be happy to correspond about what playing at Foxwoods is like regularly.

As for myself, I lasted about 3 months as a semi-pro before I couldn't stand playing any longer there. Poker as a profitable hobby is much better than as a major contributor to your income. You could easily take the $20k you have now, get vocational training and earn way more securely than you are earning now.

My computer was stolen and it had my database in it. I currently dont have access to all of my written results and my memory is failing me. I am pretty sure I have posted in the w/r thread what my largest downswing is in 2/5 but it is nothing more than a blip when you look at the amt I have won in the game...maybe someone knows what it is??

I average about 1 losing month per year. I am not sure what my biggest losing month is but I know it is under 4k and I have countless months winning north of 10k.

1.) Well, I had issues which have been resolved. I had a drinking problem which led to a gambling problem (Roulette/baccarrat etc...) I am probably down 35K or something from straight up gambling. This is a thing of the past. I am a lot more responsible and disciplined.

2.) Not worried about this.

3.) I'm gonna check it out.

As for your remarks... I think one of the key things to success in poker (And I read this from one of the links in the locked thread) is balance. I agree 100%... There are times where I play 48 hours straight, go home and sleep, then drive back and play and that next session ends up being less optimal. Why? Burn out... I think you need a balance between self-happiness (whatever that is... playing soccer, video games, exercise, etc..) and poker... I'm sure there are people out there that love poker so much that they can play it 24/7... As for myself, I play a better game when I go into the game fresh and relaxed not burnt out and tired from a previous 24-48 hour session.

There's nothing wrong with talking about poker at the poker table. What you shouldn't do is explain to someone why they are wrong with a technically accurate explanation. Or tell people they are wrong at all really, I don't think I've ever disagreed with someone about anything poker related they said at the table. Using online poker lingo is just AIDS as well, although when you hear someone spouting it off, you know there's a good chance they are bad at poker.

Had someone use the term 'ICM' while talking to me about online poker. I don't play online as I hear its rigged but I sometimes ask the bright young whippersnappers to explain it to me. Anyway, turns out all the online players use ancillary software to calculate their ICM...in cash games.

This sets off about a million red flags for me my man. I have seen literally hundreds come through the scene since black friday alone. Problem gamboolin is a MAJOR leak. And it is not a leak that I have seen problem gamblers plug successfully. Take a minute to let that soak in.

What makes you different?
what makes you special?

You have been a problem gambler in the past. I am stating from experience and witnessing this first hand that this is something that you need to be aware of and keep in check or you will fcuk up your life and this will not end will. The odds are stacked horribly against you

I am not trying to be a tool here. But I have seen way too many people with good talent go busto from problem gamboolin and I have seen zero reign it in

I can see why your family doesn't want you playing poker for a living, given you have comorbid addictions that make it dangerous for you to spend time in casinos. If I was related to you, I'd be worried too. Seems to me that it's very possible this career choice will lead you back into problems; at minimum it's going to cause you additional angst and stress in a job which frankly has enough of that baked in to begin with.

How do you think you're going to hold up when you lose 3 buyins in a row to some donkey that's luckboxing his way to a chip mountain? How about when that happens halfway into your 4th losing session that week, the one where it finally looked like the poker gods had decided to give you a break? You going to move up and chase your losses at 5/T or maybe at the baccarat table? Going to unwind with a few whiskeys?

You literally nailed my past issue. When I lost to a cooler or a series of crap situations that involved absolute idiots, I would make large mistakes at table games like bet 5K on black or throw 4K on the player in baccarrat.

I know how this looks on the surface. I am 100% done with drinking and gambling. I play poker 100%. I deal with loss a lot better. Instead of thinking of the money, I think of the literal math behind what just happened and analyze the hand. Such as:

-How far ahead was I? (The more ahead I was, the less angry I get now because I know I made the right decision and it was variance that happened)

-Did I play the hand properly or was there anything I could have done dynamically that could have made it play out differently? (If you don't learn moving forward, your standing still.)


Another HUGE factor that triggered this dumb gambling/drinking was playing too many long sessions in a row. 24 hours, sleep, then 36 hours, sleep, then 28 hours , sleep... All in repetition... I don't do this anymore. I found that playing a "session" and then returning when I feel like playing poker again is the best. And I love poker, so that feeling returns after a day off.

Another thing I might try is playing a more solid schedule. Such as 2PM-1AM or something... I don't think poker works like that though but I will try it and see how I feel about it. (Maybe the casino gets the worst players ata certain time that isn't in my "schedule"... That would be a mistake)

Werebeer and Squid pretty much said all that needs to be said about your first point.

As for your last point, it points out to another danger of poker. Nobody forces you to play. It is easy to decide, "I don't want to go today, I want to do something else." It takes a lot of discipline to say, "Yeah, I don't want to go, but I'm going anyway." Nothing is pointing to you having that level of discipline.

I'll note that I'd play until 1:30 or so. Last call at Foxwoods is at 1 am.

Done with gambling, play poker. Pick one.

tableclown, I like your chances. Not much you can do about the family not supporting you and only you know if you can handle that. Personally, I would just live my life the way I want to live it. That being said, I don't like the long-term prospects of playing poker for a living but it seems like you are in a good spot to try it out and see how it works out.

If it doesn't work out, no biggie. You should have no problem finding a new job.

Anybody that's been playing for a living for a substantial amount of time. Do you try to get in a certain amount of hours, or do you just play until you think the tables no good, you are content, or you feel it's just not your day? I've been doing this full time for almost two years. Still not sure what the right strategy is. I fee like the more hours I play, the more money I should make in the long run. Then again hours don't always lead to more money in this profession. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

You said it yourself: more volume doesn't necessarily lead to more profit. If you are not profitable at a table, it's financially irressponsible for you to keep playing. Trying to reach a certain amount of volume, while nice as a goal, may not be a good way to approach playing.

You should look to play as many hours as you can while playing profitably, and play in the softest games. If you're too tired, fatigued, or not good enough to play in a certain game, don't play.

Thank you. That's basically my thought process. Then I look as see that after my first year, I only played 1400 hours. Looking at puttin in the same amount this year. I do have a lot of extracurricular activities that pull me away sometimes. I know I need to cut back on that. I also know that balancing life and poker is important as well.

I been doing it a very long time.

At the beginning of each year I set an hours goal. I map how I am going to achieve that goal. I plan my year by playing a ton of volume during the times when the games are awesome (wsop, march madness, convention season, etc). I play a significantly less intense schedule when the games are not that great.

If I dont think a game is worth my time I will simply not sit in it for the sake of sitting in a game (this does not happen often).

A massive reason why most pros fail is due to lack of volume. It takes a lot of discipline to drag your ass into the casino when there are about 10,000 other things you would rather do.

Today for example I went out and recreated all day. I am exhausted. I do not feel like gamboolin...but I am going to get my ass to the casino and pound out some hours

Aim for 2k hrs - even if your WR drags toward the end of longer sessions/more sessions, you're still earning.

2k hours was my plan going into this year. Didn't even come close. Is that a normal number for a professional poker player?

It's probably just a normal goal.

2000 hours is about what a person with a normal job works in a year.

The answer to this question really depends on you being honest with yourself about how profitable you are when you are not playing your best. Some people's c game is still profitable and it makes since for them to continue to grind hours even when they are not necessarily up for it so long as grinding at the c game doesn't decrease the amount of total time they play their A game. There are a lot of people in poker that are crushers when they are at their best but straight up spots when they are not.

This is the root of your problem imo. Just because you are good at poker doesn't mean you deserve to win any pots. I have a similar story to yours except I don't drink. I used to get angry when I didn't win and would go to the table games and chase it.

These days I am genuinely glad for my opps when they suck out or even when they win a lot vs me and play well

Take it to heart. Just focus on your ev and technique.

Also, do other stuff. I love a long session but 60 hours per week is plenty. I usually do 3 days per week of 15-20 hour sessions and enjoy my free time from the table

Good luck and keep us posted

Nothing is really "normal" in this profession. The number of hours players put in varies quite a bit. That being said, I think 1400 hours is reasonable. That's 30 hrs a week, 47 weeks a year. Whether you want to put in more hours depends on your own personal goals.