TPTK facing pot sized donk on flop - Live Low-stakes No Limit Poker Forum

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TPTK facing pot sized donk on flop

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06-13-2018 , 05:38 PM

zukes2000

journeyman

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 238

Posted this in the not quite threadworthy a few days ago but wanted a little more feedback...

Typical loose passive limpfest 1/2 9 handed casino game. Been there about 45 minutes and have V (30s WG in t shirt) as loose passive cause of a lot of preflop limp/calling and don't recall seeing him make any significant bets. H (30s WG) has been more aggressive than most so far, but my guess is V isn't paying attention. Has his chips combined in strange combinations. Effective stacks $300.

UTG straddle $5, UTG+1 call, H (AcJc) in LJ $35, V in SB call, rest fold.

Flop ($76) JhTs6h. V $75. H?

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06-13-2018 , 06:04 PM

Mr Spyutastic

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 15,234

I think a shove is fine here given stack size. Enough bad turns for both of you.

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06-13-2018 , 06:16 PM

Ranma4703

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,099

Call cause jamming isn't going to get called by worse too often and we aren't folding

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06-13-2018 , 06:20 PM

Mr Spyutastic

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 15,234

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranma4703

Call cause jamming isn't going to get called by worse too often and we aren't folding

Not true here. Worse is calling very often at these stacks because there are alot of draws we can have. Also if they have a strong draw they aren't folding that often either and if they are great.

Last edited by Mr Spyutastic; 06-13-2018 at 06:47 PM.

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06-13-2018 , 06:41 PM

venice10

Referee

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 25,876

This is often TPGK. Unless I had a specific read on the villain, I wouldn't assume they have a draw, especially making a PSB. In this case, he's been passive.

I think you narrow your range if you raise. I'd prefer a call.

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06-13-2018 , 06:59 PM

Minatorr

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 5,235

I’d call and jam most turns.

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06-13-2018 , 07:07 PM

Mr Spyutastic

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Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 15,234

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minatorr

I’d call and jam most turns.

The problem is that half the turn cards suck.

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06-13-2018 , 08:37 PM

russianbear13

banned

Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 188

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ranma4703

Call cause jamming isn't going to get called by worse too often and we aren't folding

Huh? At these stakes jams get called by QJ,KJ frequently enough.

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06-14-2018 , 12:33 AM

ChrisV

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 40,336

Just jam. We should have a slight edge against his calling range although nothing to write home about. Calling might help extract more money from KJ and QJ but it's dubious. Villains don't normally donk $75 with the intention of folding to a raise. The big downside of flatting is that a lot of turns kill your ability to get value. If the turn is a 9h, you are done getting any value for your hand even if it's still good, and you're essentially compelled to hand your opponent a free river. A good general guideline on wet boards is to seek value immediately for this reason.

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06-14-2018 , 12:35 AM

#10

ChrisV

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Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 40,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by venice10

Call is, or should be, a super narrow range here. Good draws and strong made hands shove, bad draws and bad made hands shouldn't call a PSB. Flatting is pretty much limited to made hands which are good enough to continue with but which we're worried aren't strong enough to beat his calling range if we shove. I might be able to come up with something if I think hard enough but I'm not sure I have a flatting range here.

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06-14-2018 , 01:01 AM

#11

SwolyswoND

old hand

Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 1,976

Our hand is not strong enough to call here and let a turn peel off. Jam now while we have the highest equity against his range, as the turn is way more likely to improve V's range than our exact hand.

We'd also play hands like KQ/AQ/AK/hearts this way too, so it's good as a range move.

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06-14-2018 , 10:13 AM

#12

shorn7

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,495

V's sizing is interesting for a donk. Most donk bets are smaller when they rep top/good IME. This bet to me looks way more like 2p+ or big combo draw.

Combinatorically, I think we are crushed when we shove and get called here (which I think is often) as big combo draws are only 2 combos, MAYBE 3(K

). Way more combos of sets and 2P here. So, IP I prefer (given stack sizes) a flat to see what V does on the turn even though there are a lot of cards we don't like.

If stacks were shorter, then it is a clear jam...if way deeper (say 250+), then I like a raise for value. But at 125-175 bb's (awkward IMO), I think flatting is the most optimal play here.

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06-14-2018 , 02:36 PM

#13

zukes2000

journeyman

Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 238

Seems like some good arguments for both calling or shoving here. I was a little surprised at a pot sized donk here and was discounting draws in his range because of the pot size.

UTG straddle $5, UTG+1 call, H (AcJc) in LJ $35, V in SB call, rest fold.

Flop ($76) JhTs6h. V $75. H asks how much V has and he points to one of his two mixed stacks of chips and says "there's 100 in there" and the other stack looks like about $80 to me. H calls $75.

Turn ($226) JhTs6h7c. V quickly slides the smaller stack of chips in. I ask how much, he doesn't know. Dealer counts it out at $70. V now has $100 behind and we cover. H?

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06-14-2018 , 09:12 PM

#14

ChrisV

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Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 40,336

Definitely jam now, hope he doesn't have JT/66/98

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06-15-2018 , 01:44 AM

#15

javi

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Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 8,245

raise and get it in. I suspect his disorganized stack is of the player type who clearly doesnt play much and doesnt really know anything about the game, so him flopping any top pair is gonna seem like the nuts to him and he'll just autobet because it's blackjack. Probably has no idea how much he has in front of him either so he'll just toss it in.

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06-15-2018 , 10:09 AM

#16

shorn7

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,495

Are we getting called by worse if we shove? I think I prefer taking advantage of V's bad bet sizing and calling again here and potentially folding on the river. I just don't think we are ahead often enough here to shove (really think V could also have a slow played KK/QQ here too).

I just smell a stinky in this one.

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