I found myself in a tough spot with AKo today in a multiway pot, not quite sure what to do. Game is $1/3 and somewhat deep (late Sunday night), with average around $500 stacks.

V1 is new to the table, but he's opened a few hands and then x/folded flop. Stack $300.

V2 is a tilted fish. I've stacked him multiple times tonight and he's called all in with hands like 2nd pair, no kicker. Stack of ~$150.

V3 is a nit. Doesn't play many hands, and generally only strong ones. Doesn't bet without *very* strong hands. For example, he checked down AQ on an AT843 board.

Hero is playing a lot of hands in position and stealing some pots, but none have gone to showdown so not sure if anyone has noticed.

OTTH:

V1 opens UTG to $10, V2 and V3 both call. Hero looks down at AcKs - action?

I decide to 3-bet to $40, which is clearly terrible sizing in retrospect. I was thinking this size loses the minimum if V1 4-bets, but obviously offers fantastic pot odds and is simply too small. What size would be better?

As expected, all 3 call.

Flop ($120): 6cJsAs

V1 checks, V2 jams for his remaining $110, V3 asks how much then calls.

Hero? Should I make the hero fold against V3, especially with the Ks blocker, just call? Raise to discourage flush draws?

I go $55 pre. AP, I re jam. V2 is so wide here. I can see the concern with V3, but I would expect all hands that beat us to re jam; even though V3 is a super nit, I can't see him just flat AJs/JJ here with the FD on the board, and if he does, well then we learn something.

Pre I go $50 - $60. My standard is $50, but if they are call happy, I go $60.

As played, I can see shoving or flatting vs. a nit. If you flat, he's probably not betting unless he has a very big hand, so you can keep it a little cheaper and maybe shove him off a spade turn. If you shove, he's most likely folding what you beat and calling only with what beats you.

Any vibe on V1? If V1 is folding, I kind of like a flat vs. a nit. If a spade comes on the turn and he checks, I shove.

I’m thinking more like 70 pre.

How deep are you with V3?

what is your position?

What's the nit's stack? I'll assume it's $500 (as big as us).

I'm also typically 3betting here with this dead money and a juicer sized raise. Against the preflop raiser I usually like offering poor 8:1 IO, which would mean a raise to about $50. This will also target the fish stack as it will leave us a PSB shove against him if he calls. However, with the deeper nit in the hand, plus the fact that the preflop result to $40 is expected (as it would be at my table), I probably lean to bigger, like $70. If we take down $34 uncontested / unraked, that ain't a bad result. And the fish might still call either way.

Gross flop spot with the nit in the mix. I'll admit I haven't looked into this at all, and I'm not a huge fan of "tells" in general, but how often does a nit have the nuts when he asks "how much is it"? 100%? I think I can lean to a sigh fold here but it's a gross spot for sure.

ETA: Actually, most nits don't get too tarpy here in a big pot with a drawy board. So I wouldn't hate a ship here either.

Gsetupbetterpreflopresults,imoG

Oops, I meant to list V3's stack. He has around $450. I'm on the button and cover everyone.

Agreed I should have sized up preflop to $60-70 minimum. Also makes it look more like a "steal" to some of these players.

Yup, I think the big challenge with raising is V3 folds all the hands which beat me and loses the max to AJ/JJ. I kind of like the notion of flatting to semi-bluff spade turns, but unfortunately V1 *also* looked interested and if I flat he has great odds to continue with flush draws.

Yeah, I actually tanked for a bit trying to figure out what the question meant:
1. Could he actually have a draw and genuinely wonder if he's getting a good price?
2. Is it an angle or speech play with the ~nuts? (my default assumption)

The problem is both seem unlikely: I don't see nit showing up with many FD here, but would he also only flat the ship with AJ/JJ with 2 people left to act?

Honestly, shipping seems pretty spewy. Literally ~never getting called by worse.

If V1 looks interested, maybe just fold and get out of the way. If V1 shoves over top now, it sucks, and regardless, there aren't a lot of cards we want to see on the turn, except maybe a K.

AKo is a clear 3-bet in position against a player who has shown a tendency to open a range much wider than premium pocket pairs, especially with the dead money from two callers who will often have capped ranges.

With AKo, don't worry about losing the minimum if someone 4-bets. Nobody is ever 4-betting you so don't worry about it. You block AA and KK. And if someone DOES actually 4-bet you, you can worry about it then (and probably fold against nits and get in against splashy players). I'd guess that 85-90% of the time you are getting folds or calls in 1-3, not 4-bets.

I would size at a standard 3x the original raiser plus one for each caller (5x) plus one because I'm hoping for folds with ace high and would rather not have to hit a flop (6x) plus one because 1-3 tables are often overly call-happy and again I'd rather not have to hit a flop (7x) for a final 3bet size of $70. $40 is way too small which you already noticed. The rest of the hand gets much more difficult to play multiway due to the small sizing. I know it's scary to risk $70 with ace high, but this is a situation that you must get comfortable with to become a tough and dangerous player.

If you 3bet to 40 and 3 called, the pot should be ~160 on the flop, not 120. This makes a big difference because if it's 120 then the nit called nearly a pot sized bet with the PFR still to act behind and is less likely to have a flush draw. If it's 160 then the nit called a 3/4 pot sized bet and is much more likely to have flush draws in his range.

As played and assuming the flop pot size was 120, call. The nit may have raised a set or two pair to protect against possible flush draws, so you are likely to hold the best hand and folding the best hand would be a disaster getting 3:1 pot odds. The nit is unlikely to bet at any future point in the hand unless he makes a monster, as you have stated. Nits don't like to call with flush draws for pot sized bets with the PFR still to act behind. His range is mostly AK-AT, your biggest fear is AJ but the pot odds easily justify the call. Against the range you are doing great. Call and check down to showdown. If he bets at any point after this, you know are very likely beat and can fold.

Don't worry about the flush draw. If that's what he has and hits it for free on the river that's fine, he already made a mistake by calling so much on the flop to pay for the draw. You don't want to make a habit of worrying about lines that are already mistakes if the player is competent. And again you can just fold when he bets.

Also V2 could easily have you beat already, but again the pot odds and very low SPR justify a call with TPTK as this tilted fish's range includes all kinds of nonsense that you beat.

Yup, I think it's covered at this point that preflop sizing was way too small. I know that and would usually go much bigger, no real excuse/reason besides being tired (it's 4am) and not on my A game. (Thankfully I realized that after this hand and racked up.)

We don't necessarily *hate* a spade though, right? It gives us the nut draw and depending on players/reactions I might be able to get V3 off AJ.

I agree folding should be an option, but the other problem is V1 is a bad player who could easily be interested/calling with a worse A as well.

Yeah, I would have easily stacked off with the fish. The problem is V1 is left to act behind me and he could certainly have a flush draw + if I flat, he *is* getting the odds to call.

I think you can safely shove all in here on the flop. If V3 is truly a nit, he would have shoved himself to ISO with AJ/66 because of the flush draw and these are the only two hands I'm worried about.

Also, even though V3 is a nit, he is surely aware of V2 stacking off lightly so I would have to assume V3 will call V2 with a wider range including pretty much all Ax hands.

I don't like flatting here since there's already $340 in the pot. With your $110 that makes it $450, so just shove whatever you have left.

I think V3 can easily have JJ here as well (he is truly a nit), but it does seem odd he'd give a flush draw odds to call.

I doubt he's calling *very* wide here in a 3-bet pot. Nits don't like calling down with (ex. AT) in a 3-bet pot. AQ might be possible though.

"... I think V3 can easily have JJ here as well (he is truly a nit), but it does seem odd he'd give a flush draw odds to call... "

Some nits in my games flat the JJJ to see if the flush comes on the turn, or to lure others into a multiway pot, or both.

Then they smash the turn if the flush misses.

Your nit isn't mine, so YMMV.

While I agree a ship doesn't get called by worse, it's more about simply protecting our equity in a huge pot at this point... *if* we're convinced the nit ain't capable of getting fancy here with flopped monsters. Course V1 is still in the mix too, but the more multiway a pot goes the more even he donks his monsters.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I am somewhat perplexed with the obsession with large 3bet sizes. The 3bet size is fine in forcing most of them to make a mistake in calling for a set mine, especially those with $300 stacks. I guess if all 3 call, you bet bigger because you can get more value.

As played, I call. The nit will tell you with his betting if he has it or not. So will the UTG villain. If checked on the turn, you can bet/fold 120.

Yeah I like 60 pf. Do you have the Ks?

As played I call and see what the nit does on the turn. Nit can have AJs, A6s, 66 and JJ for sure I think. Position is huge here. So I would proceed cautiously. I don't think he has that many FDs to worry. Especially if you have the Ks he has like almost none.

Yes, I have the Ks and agree he pretty rarely has a flush draw. Only a handful of combos.

I'm more worried about V1 drawing. He looked interested and is capable of having many draws. Maybe not the worst thing if I have Ks though?

Yeah especially having the Ks I wouldn't worry too much about what V1 does. The pot is protected and whatever he does you will still act last with all the info.

I don't think there is value in doing anything but calling and seeing what develops.

You will have much better visibility on the hand on the turn.

Also if the turn is a spade you will likely get to realize your equity for free vs the nit if he is ahead and maybe even get a free showdown.

If we flat and V1 shoves, I guess we can fold if V3 goes along? Do we call otherwise? I assume so.

If we flat and V1 flats and shoves the turn, do we call (obviously we fold if V3 calls)?

I'm fine flatting if I don't think V1 is coming along, but I don't like it if he is.

The only reason I wanna go this big is because his sizing of 10 is basically 3x, which seems supersmall at these stakes. When someone opens supersmall and I wanna 3bet, I'm mostly just pretending they opened to a standard size. If 10 is the standard at this table though, then I think 50 is more than enough.

Grunch

I like $70 pre.

Flatting seems fine.

Folding is rlly bad. V3 has all the AQ and he may be super wide here considering V2 is a tilted fish. I doubt very many people at this level put much weight into the fact that they're not closing the action so I wouldn't assume V3 even cares.

Also, keep in mind since you made it so small pre V3 basically continued with everything he called the PFR with. So I think he has more FDs than you think

It seems like the consensus is that flatting is fine, folding is bad, and jamming isn't ideal but not spew.

Anyways, results: