This is Borgata 2-5 on a Saturday Night.

The question I have is did I play this too passively on the flop? Should I have just shoved or raised? If raising am I just committing myself?

Hero: $550: Been at the table about an hour. I've shown two hands. QQ losing to AA for 300 AI pre flop. I made the squeeze raise on the big blind and original raiser shoves over top and I made a crying call.
Other hand I showed was bottom set. Check raised all in on the flop and get called by an Albanian guy for 400 on a gut shot that hits.

Villian 1: Late 20s Asian. Stack $1100. Seems to play solid. Early Position raising range, pairs, broadways. Been relatively quiet no big pots of note in the hour

Villian 2: Late 20s early 30s. $1100 I've played with him in NYC before. Tight player as far as I remember. He's reading a Kindle and hasn't really been involved in any major hands in the hour I've been at the table.


Hero Dealt
J10 on Button

V1: Raises to 25 UTG+2 V2 Calls 25 UTG+3.
Hero: Calls on Button

Pot $87 including blinds and 1 limp folder.

Flop:

J10 6

V1 Bets $75
v2 Calls $75


Hero:??? After running bad already in the session I decide to just flat here. My plan is to shove non club turns and re-evaluate if bottom pair pairs as I think there is a chance V1 has a big pair.

If this just weak?

Turn 3

V1 Bets $225, V2 quickly raises all in for $700ish more on top.

v2 Range: Sets of JJ and 10,10 discounted since I have top 2 and he would likely re raise jj. 66 is easy possibility however I question if he'd flat that with a flush draw on flop.
AK KQ Clubs 89 Clubs. Possibly but seems a little spazy for him to do on the turn unless he has a good read on V1

Hero: ?? I got the exact card I wanted but didn't expect that action: I have top 2 and while I think V2 might flat with 10 10 pre flop I am certain he raises JJ pre flop. I also think he protects on the flop against a flush draw. 66 is a possibility but would he protect on the flop?

I only have $400ish behind and $400 to win 850 and V1 may call behind.


Questions:

Should I have just shoved or re raised the flop. If just re raise is there anything I'm folding with that board?

If this an insta call and let variance take its course or am I right to be thinking of folding here?

Raise the flop. Half the deck is bad for you and the board is drawy enough to where villains might not give you credit for a real hand.

Turn is an easy shove. If he slowplayed 66 then good for him. Doubt he has 33. Losing this hand is a cooler imo. i dont understand how you can ever fold in this spot.

Snap shove imo. There are so many hands you beat, and the only one you're losing to is 66, but I highly doubt villain would play a set so passively on the flop with 1 player still to act behind him.

I'd raise the flop to about 275ish with the intention to fold to a raise. This will a.) chase out some possible flush/straight draws, and b.) might portray you as having a big draw. In addition, if you're raised, you're almost always up against a set or some monster like KQcc.

Shove any turn.

As played, it looks like an easy fold OTT. Overpairs are never making this move, 2p is unlikely, combo draws might do this some % of the time, but i think we can wait for a better spot. you're almost always up against a set of 66's, considering the action OTF

Raise flop. You are crushing their ranges and only 4 turn cards help your hand, whereas most of them can really hurt.

Shoving any turn then.

As played I'm all in on turn.

all in

For what it's worth, I see people in V2's spot do this a lot when they are out of relative position with a big hand. It's 3 ways, and V1 is showing aggression. So they slowplay on the flop with the intention of raising safe turns, totally forgetting that you are allowed to call behind them.

I think V2 has given away that he has a huge hand here, and folding would not be terrible (though you could be folding yourself off a chop maybe). Personally the only reason I would not have shoved the flop is if I wanted to try to find a fold right now.

Im re using what others said. Too many cards to hurt u after flop so reraise there for sure. You have to shove the turn, ur gunna be up against the draws or trip 6 so ur not totally crushed

really? raise the flop with the intention to fold to a shove? this just sounds unbelievable nitty to me...
i would definetely raise flop since u can commit almost half ur stack here and now never folding whatsoever. or just jam allin flop, maybe looks like a draw. on the turn u have to call, although it really looks like a set here, but i myself would not get in this situation. i would be allin on the flop. calling behind will kill ur action on many turns, u also might get bluffed sometimes. raise flop really. if he has a set, then nh

Is it wrong to think about a re raise preflop. That seems like a decent spot to try the squeez play

honestly i dont think its the best spot for a squeeze, since first u have the button with JTs in a probably multiway pot, which is good imo, and second u arent that deep to do that. if the first raiser reads ur play as a squeeze play, he might even 4bet with 99, AK, AQ and u burned 100 dollar without seeing a flop with a nice hand in position.
btw, he had a set here i guess, since u weren´t folding i hope, but now u try to find out if u made a mistake. i would really recommend raising the flop, but as played, u got still a nice spot to call allin. if he had a set, u were just unlucky here.

In-game, I probably call the turn shove. However, stoving this suggests it's -EV unless we can include AJ in V1's raise calling range on the turn.

As for the flop, I think it's a shove for a few reasons:

1.) The turn will help villain's ranges more often than not. Any club, A, K, Q, 9, or 6 is a bad card for us (25/47 cards left in the deck).

2.) Stack sizes. We have $525 behind with $238 in the pot. Raising to something like $250 just commits us to get it in bad when a club or broadway hits the turn and one or both villains shove.

3.) Our villains can call with worse. Depending on how the shove is interpreted, we could be getting called by QQ+, combo draws, maybe AcJx. Hands that are ahead of our range, but not our specific hand.



Thoughts?

This is all wrong. I don't mean to be mean, but raising to 275 and then folding (with like $250 behind and with top 2pair) is pretty horrible as many hands he'd shove are behind us. Our raise also looks pretty light because we should be hitting this range hard so raising doesn't always mean we have hit it hard.

We don't want to "chase out" FDs/SDs just give them the wrong odds, if we are raised we are up against a pretty diverse range of hands, not just sets and KQcc. We have a hand too good to fold for 100bbs.

If we raise the flop, are we shoving? Pot is already 225, 300 with our call, and we have $450 left. Any amount we raise on top of the $75 leaves us entirely committed regardless of the turn card.

I raise/call the flop but on the turn I probably puke fold and anxiously wait for showdown

The question is does villain 2 ever over value AJ ? I guess its possible on such a drawy board but it would be weirdif he is in anyway competent especially after the first villains action (usually this hand just wants to get to show down), does he ever shove with a combo draw ? Probably, his call OTF looks an awful lot like a draw but a big combo draw would often be played fast OTF no?. I think villain 1 we have beat most of the time. Its close, Its becoming more and more common that i see people playing sets slowly on wet boards. TBH I think I just fold.

I think we should almost always play it fast on the flop

What happened did someone hit there set OTT ??

Raise folding the flop is horrible IMO

Raise the flop and then folding the turn when it bricks is also clearly bad

Thanks for all the feedback.

If I'm sitting with 1,100 chips like the two villians does it change your play? This is a spot I've been in a few times recently especially a few times out in Vegas when I played the Aria 2-5 with it being 1000 max to start rather than $500.

I think my failure to re raise flop was a combination of nit tilt from getting coolered twice in the last hour and playing deeper the last time I went to Vegas. Makes sense that for under 100BB I should raise or shove flop.

Curious for those who said shove, If you are deeper say 200+ BB or $1100 in front of us at what point are you raising to 275?



Spoiler.

waiting for the turn before committing your stack is a terrible mentality for poker when you have a set or top two pair.

Really? You're going to fold for 250 more?

I thought that at first but I'm not sure now. We have a lot more information on the turn. V2 is an ABC player who is showing massive strength, and we don't have as much of our stack in as we should.

V2's line is almost never an overpair or 33, either, it's 66 a lot of the time.

Agreed that if I raise flop it's raise/call.

I think whether I'm 100 bb or 200 bb deep I have to reraise the flop. I think I can never find a raise/fold with your current stack. I might have a raise/fold to V2 if you're 200 BB deep and V2 shoves for 800 more or something OTF, though, as that's a set or OE straight flush draw all day.

Also, krupdogg, if you're willing to call off a blank turn, you should 100% be raising the flop, since that implies you think you were ahead of their range OTF!