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Top Two Pair Bloated Multi-way Pot Top Two Pair Bloated Multi-way Pot

Yesterday , 12:22 PM
I hate multi-way pots and I am almost always raising the limpers and 3-betting with most of my range at these small stake tables to avoid them. I'm seriously considering implementing a rule: If I can raise from the BB, fold.

BB: Hero ($550): Me - I started pushing the action at the table, but some splashy types joined in and pushed the action for me. Some at the table were vocally calling me a nit. Main Villain to my left had opened the table with me and had seen me through both my action phase and nitty phase.

UTG: Villain 1 ($2k+): Started the day playing what appeared to be reasonable TAG-style play. Was having a good run. As his stack grew, he was becoming much more LAG, started showing a few 2nd and even 3rd pairs after big bets. He was aggressive, but not overly reckless.

CO: V2 ($400): Local grinder I know well and play frequently. He's better than me and has the WSOP ring to prove it. He just sat down an hour ago and has been in observation mode.

$1/$3:

V1 (UTG) raises $10, 7 callers (everyone). Hero is in BB with Kc7c. Hero calls. (Can I fold here? I really want to, but it just seems too nitty while raising is obviously out of the question.)

Flop ($70) Kd,7d,2s

SB checks, Hero checks, V1 bets $50, V2 calls, Hero calls three ways to the turn

Turn ($220) 6c

Hero checks, V1 bets $100, V2 calls, Hero? (about $490 behind)

As mentioned above, I've played with V2 a lot, so I'm very confident V2 is sitting on either a flush draw or a moderate K (K8-KQ) by the second barrel, I believe he would be reraising two pair+ and would have 3-bet large pre with premiums 100% of the time. V1 has been amping up the aggression so I expect the double barrel from a large portion of his range, but I don't believe he is on pure air.

I really hate all my options equally, and I hate being in this position, but I'm not sure it is avoidable.
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Yesterday , 12:41 PM
Hand is probably fine, and now you shove

Not sure why you hate the spot; looks like a dreamy scenario to me?
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Yesterday , 12:52 PM
Pre was fine, now it's 490 into 420 ott (about a psb) and we have top two. If the "good payer" flatted with a set because V1's been laggy, we can still fill up.
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Yesterday , 01:11 PM
Fine so far, raise (shove) now and love it.
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Yesterday , 01:30 PM
I'd have check-raised the flop, but as it stands you have top two with no straights or flushes. Jam now - you'd hate an 8 to hit and lose to K8o. You are almost always ahead now, can get called by worse, charge drawing hands. What's not to like.

Preflop you're getting 12/1 with a suited King - absolutely fine to call

Last edited by moxterite; Yesterday at 01:36 PM.
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Yesterday , 01:51 PM
I honestly don't hate a fold preflop but I'm a massive nit (ldo). Half the time I don't play Kxs limped to me on the Button (I'll mostly need a special player in the hand to do so) because I'm worried about the RIO issues versus Axs (which everyone always plays) and meanwhile it has nothing else going for it. But being OOP here (hard to increase IO / limit RIO) is the kicker for me.

Think I would mostly just bet/evaluate x 3 on safe runouts (often leaning to a nitty fold if raised) to charge draws / Kx.

As played (and I probably would have donked for fear of turn checking thru), action kinda looks like Kx versus a draw. We only have a PSB left. Think I just stuff it now?

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Yesterday , 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moxterite
I'd have check-raised the flop, but as it stands you have top two with no straights or flushes. Jam now - you'd hate an 8 to hit and lose to K8o. You are almost always ahead now, can get called by worse, charge drawing hands. What's not to like.

Preflop you're getting 12/1 with a suited King - absolutely fine to call
Against a full table of unknowns, I probably check-raise the flop. But I went flat calling because:

1: V1 cleared the field - I'm unlikely to fold out either player and V1 probably shoves with a FD or V2 is easily priced in with a FD. If playing all-in against a FD, I'd rather have one card to come not two.
2: If V2 is nutted with a set, I think he smooth calls the flop a lot. He probably wants me in there and he likely also assessed that V1 would keep barreling. He's the kind to let an aggressive player take some rope.
3: I estimated V1 would continue barreling on the turn with most of his range.

OTT one V1 has bet and V2 has flatted a second time, I believe I can safely remove sets from V2s range, cutting my risk of running headlong into a set in half.

I think preflop is pretty much mandatory. I just hate being OOP with a hand that is at best a vulnerable two-pair and virtually never the nuts against 8 players. Ever winning with raggy Kx in this position seems to be entirely in the hands of the poker gods. On the BTN, RFI going heads-up, I can win the pot a dozen ways. From the BB calling multi-way I need to hit big, and it has to hold because it's unlikely I can ever take down the pot without showdown, and how strong is KK77 when 180+ bb stacks go in? It's definitely on the weak side. Especially with V1 uncapped.
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Yesterday , 04:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamihere
. Especially with V1 uncapped.
But when you talk about V1 being uncapped, don't you really mean preflop where he can have hands like AA which are far from nutted now. In fact he's less likely than V2 (or you) to have a set given that he shouldn't often have 22, while you block both the higher sets.
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Yesterday , 10:44 PM
I did shove, I don't think there's any option OTT. V1 instantly said all-in, not sure he realized V2 was shorter than me. V2 tanked a bit, but ultimately folded. Show me AA or AK one time? Nope. 22 for the set. Blank river. GG.

I think I played the hand standard, arguably could have cr the flop, but for me the outcome would have been the same. If I just call turn, V barrels river, probably all-in and I have to call. It's a cooler, it happens and it's especially annoying when it happens late in the day against the only stack that has you covered. But why was I even in this hand? I didn't want to play K7 against everyone.

What bothers me is preflop seems destined for trouble. I'm getting 12:1, but I'm not sure I can consistently realize enough equity against the field. If I'm on the button, I fold K7s against a raise + call(s) routinely. Most often, if I'm playing K7, I am in position and raising enough to isolate. Otherwise, K7 just isn't strong enough IMO. So if I wouldn't put myself in this situation from the button where I have positional advantage, why do I put myself in the same situation out of position solely because I already have $3 out there? Every other position, I am never flatting K7 against multiple opponents - I'm waiting for a better spot.

If I had raised to $60 preflop, 22 goes away - he was LAG not a maniac and getting poor odds to setmine. If V2 could call, then the flop is the virtual nuts for me and I win. On other flops, I can navigate against one villain with my range uncapped. But because I flatted, I end up catching a very good hand against an insanely wide range, and my range is capped. I think K7 is too weak to squeeze, but I think squeezing anything from the BB is generally superior to flatting, and maybe folding is superior despite the odds being laid when I have a hand that can't squeeze.

Maybe I theoretically have a tiny EV+ with a call, but I generally don't like to put my money in with slight EV+. I'm not a pro, I'm not playing pros, I don't need to squeeze out every tiny edge. I'm playing in games where a lot of people make big mistakes (including me sometimes), so I can do very well exploiting the low hanging fruit, mostly taking down pots without showdown. Is it worth playing positions where I am maybe realizing 10% equity with great play just because I am getting laid 12:1 odds? Put that way, I don't think so. I'm playing in games where if you avoid big -EV plays and exploit some of the bigger EV+ opportunities, you're cashing out a winner frequently. There isn't a need to push the thinner EV edges and take on the variance that comes with thin edges.

So how wide can I squeeze when the only hand that might play back hard is UTG? I might try a squeeze or fold strategy from these small raise, mass caller scenarios.
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Today , 06:31 AM
Don't squeeze junky suited Kings against 8 opponents (especially to only 60!), that's burning money, you'll fold out maybe 6 people and still end up OOP multiway except that you'll have put in 10-20% of your stack.

You're getting 12/1 preflop, you don't need to put any more money in unless you hit 2p+ (and you're playing very cautiously with trip Kings), sure you lose to a nut flush sometimes but there are loads of worse flushes out there as well, there are 8 people in the pot after all
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Today , 08:53 AM
I would be pretty happy as I jammed turn. Might also raise flop often.
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