1/3 nl live, 7players

utg: $200
mp: $400
co (Hero J J): $400

utg sat down an orbit ago so no reads.
young black male, gold chain around his neck, big oversized watch.

mp is passive.


preflop:
utg/mp limps, hero raises to $15, blinds fold, utg/mp call.

flop ($49): 8 9 J
utg/mp checks, hero bets $25, utg shoves for $185, mp folds, Hero?

i dont have the pot odds to call if he has the straight.

if villain was an old man coffee, i would fold.
i can see omc's shoving here because they are so afraid of being out drawn.

But a young guy? i would figure he would x/r some amount with the straight then push on a safe turn. (like any other normal person with a straight in this situation.)

even if he had T A for a combo draw, would he x/r shove for 7x my bet?


1) Should i have checked the flop? Why/why not?
2) What would you do vs the shove?

Don't check the flop. We can get value from flush draws, straight draws, pair + SD/FD, worse sets, two pairs, top pair, etc.

I'm snap calling the shove. He could have a draw/pair + draw/combo draw, but he can also have worse value.

1. Checking seem crazy, they have so many draws and pair+draws. I'd bet every time, probably $30.
2. Snap call and loving it. So so many 2pair, 108, 109, j10, spades etc etc

1): Never. That's one of the wettest flops imaginable. Why would you ever let drawing hands that will call a bet realize some of their equity for free? Also half the deck is going to make you feel nervous on the turn. Not even being sarcastic, there might be 12 true bricks (2-4 no spades, and aces no spades). Every other card either brings in a draw, while you have 7 cards that improve you.

2): Snap call. Even if your opponent has a straight, you have outs. And you are ahead of V's fear shove range, obviously.

Funny, Doug Polk folded his T7o in almost this *exact situation* on High Stakes Poker last week (vs. Hellmuth's QT)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcHra9RMw0A

I go $20 preflop just to target the UTG stack so I can more comfortably stack off postflop against him with an overpair.

Against smaller stack the SPR is ~4 and we're committed (and should work towards it ASAP, imo). Against bigger stack the SPR is ~8 and you could argue we might even be committed against it barring a stoopid runout. I'm looking to get stacks in ASAP against the shorter one, so I PSB the flop. Board is about as wet as it can get and no one ever folds a draw on the flop, so I think it is a decent mistake sizing much smaller.

Snap calling the shove and feeling awesome about it. First, there's a zillion draws he could be fastplaying. Second, he could have a zillion second best hands that he thinks are nuttish (including tricky AA/KK/QQ). Third, $200 stacks ain't exactly deep in a 1/3 NL game and can go in semi-easy. Fourth, in rare times we're behind we're still gonna suckout about 1/3rd of the time.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I forgot to add that we should be going bigger pre

Those were insanely different dynamics

Yup, that’s about sums it up for me.

Sorry if you lost, but this is a turbo snap call against an unknown at 1/3

The obvious difference here though is that Hero is never drawing dead here, even if he is behind currently. Polk's hand only gets out nutted, and against Hellmuth's actual holding, he was drawing 100% dead.

3 whole queens to chop, yo!

Right, I'm obviously not saying he should fold here, and this player is obviously not Phil Hellmuth. And Hellmuth's 3bet was for like 200+ BB. Just noticing it's very similar (down to two spades and a heart on the flop).

1. Tough to say. Very wet board.

2. Young flashy folk are often gambling. I'd call. You need to be right 38% of the time. the board pairs 25% of the time by the river. Plus he might not have a made hand or he could have lower trips.

Funny I just watched Doug Polk's re-play of that hand the other day. Agree that hand could be and was in fact drawing to two outs just to split the pot. And main point of that podcast was Phil kept talking about the hand which convinced Doug he must have the nuts. A very good read on Doug's behalf. This situation is totally different. We do have equity against the current nuts. Also It is much stronger than bottom set. I could sometimes find a fold in this situation with bottom set, but not with top set. You are ahead of middle and bottom set and you are crushing any two-pair hands. That is not the case when you have bottom set.

Flush draws should mostly have checked to let the MP player come in if he wanted to. No reason to reduce your pot odds if you are on a draw that needs 2:1 to call profitably. Similarly, most made straights should just call the flop and make sure a flush or pair does not hit on the turn. Then, they can shove the turn, thereby increasing their fold equity against the flush and sets or two pair hands. This however is a common mistake made by many poker players. By getting it all in on the flop, you are pricing in the draws to call with two others in the pot. Only if the draws have to worry about another pot-sized turn bet will they think twice about calling the flop bet. For these reasons, you should usually min raise with your made hand to reduce the pot odds for the draws and make them fear another raise by the original bettor. This play comes straight out of the limit hold'em playbook.

So, this player did not play his hand like he should have if he had either a flush draw or a made straight. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a draw or a straight. It simply means he is not a strong or thinking player. These players are usually straight forward. Their actions give away their hands. This UTG+1 has a strong made hand that he thinks is vulnerable to being drawn out on. He is trying to shove to get weaker hands and draws to fold. I would put him on two pair, bottom set, or a combination pair + draw all day. Against that range, I have an easy call - even if he may on occasion have the straight in this situation.

You should never be checking on a wet board, especially one where almost half the deck completes a draw on the turn when you have a set. I am pretty sure in H's spot with the action, my c-bet range is actually 100%.

Bet and snap call the shove. srsly, why is this a thread.

Btw, a potsize raise from villain would be 124. it´s not even an unreasonably largy shove by any stretch.

We all know the answer to this. V hit gin, and OP wants to make sure it wasn't a dumb move to call there.

You need to recalibrate here. This is technically true that it’s 7x your bet, but you have to think of what he’s shoving relative to the pot. After your bet and a call, the pot is $99 and he’s shoving for $160 more. Which at this stack depth is standard with a lot of value hands (that would like to jam it in to make you draw as expensively as possible) and draws (that would like to make you fold as often as possible).

So no, never fold near the top of your range here. Ever. Against anyone. I’m sure you can invent a player to fold against, but it’s so rare that it’s not worth discussing.


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Flop cbet is good and snap-call the jam.

Very hard to find a situation to fold middle set OTF, let alone top set. This is the snappiest of calls. You're basically slowrolling the guy if you take more than 5 seconds here.

Totally agree never folding here for his stack size. Now had UTG shoved and MP went all in over the top, I might have to stop and think twice, but probably still calling even in that situation.

I think the flop bet was too small. We want to play for stacks and this is a very wet board that could have hit either one or both of our opponents hard. They likely have a lot of equity such as a pair and flush or open ended straight draw. I think we should have been betting pot, especially after they both checked and we bet in last position. Often, they will not respect our raise from late position after it checks around especially since we were the pre-flop raiser. We could be making a continuation bet with AK/AQ or might even have bluffed with a small pair that missed on a scary board. Likewise, if they take our bet to mean we have an overpair such as AA or QQ they may think their 2 pair is a monster. The UTG likely has something like TJ for top pair and open ended straight draw.

Anyway, I am wanting to build a pot so I can really put some pressure on the turn when a blank comes and also I want to build the pot before a scare card hits that will not only scare us from putting more money in the pot but will also scare our opponents from doing the same. I would have bet 50 dollars. That would have made our next decision to call the UTG's all in even easier.

wow.. same 89j flop.
phil x/r 3bets all in and the commentator said phil wouldnt do this with A T for a combo draw?!?

This is a completely different situation.
Please don´t draw the conclusion that you should do anything but betting the flop and snap calling the allin.

But here´s a question to you, why is it a different situation?

These are such different situations that it’s not even funny.

1) Doug was getting 1.22:1. Hero in this thread is getting 1.62:1
2) Doug’s equity against the hand Phil is representing is below 10%. Top set against this hand is nearly 35%
3) UTG is raising a bet all in for 67 bb. Phil was cold raising a check raise and risking over 230 bb. Since Phil has to risk a lot more bb’s, he’s going to be a lot less cavalier about trying to get a fold.


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All true. Maybe this is a good place to remind some players about stack size and pot commitment.

If you plan to raise or re-raise, and that bet is more than 1/3rd of your remaining stack, you should generally move all in. That is the basic rule. This relates back to an earlier comment that villain's re-raise shove was like 7x. But yes. You have to look at his stack size and once he decided his hand was good enough to raise, he has an easy all-in decision. If he raised to 100 and you called, the pot would be around 400 and he would only have 70 left behind. He couldn't fold to a river bet getting almost 6:1. So best to just get it all-in on the turn.