If villain is firing most of his range on the flop then we should be calling him because generally AQ high is the best hand. That is if we are heads up. The dynamic changes if we go multiway.

Of course you're not "checking the flop", I didn't suggest you would. But if he puts pressure on you (which is what LAGs do) and you fold (because you only have ace high), you're losing way more than $20. That's my point.

Also, "bloats the pot" isn't the part I mislike about the 3!, it's the c-bet, which we are forced to make, and which'll be quite high because the pot's bloated.

I don't know what you mean here. How does "33% of the time we hit a pair, and a large subset of that time it will be top pair" equal "close to 50%+"?

If you're trying to say that "in addition to when we hit a pair, there will be a large percentage of the time that the flop misses his his range, so it is favorable to AQ-high," you may be correct, but what boards hit his range, in your opinion? And how are you responding to his c-bet on various boards?

I think I'd rather flat on the button and play in position against someone who is likely to barrel away post and can 4 bet light.

If I did 3 bet I would be doing so with the intention of gii if 4 bet. I think he'll be doing this w/ any Ax suited, 99+ 67s/78s, quite possibly ATC. a guy who plays higher is absolutely gonna put max pressure on you when your deep like this and obviously playing super snug.

He correctly puts your calling range on AA and is abusing you. These are spots that you need to take advantage of. I would not be folding AQ pre against this villain (whose stuck) really ever.

Maybe you could give an example?

Against a wide opening range we have good equity:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 59.176% 56.28% 02.89% 5680227 292097.50 { AQo }
Hand 1: 40.823% 37.93% 02.89% 3828074 292104.50 { 66+, A3s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

Lots of boards without an ace or queen our equity improves:

Board: 7c 5d 3h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 61.004% 57.78% 03.23% 1597530 89272.50 { AQo }
Hand 1: 38.996% 35.77% 03.23% 988995 89272.50 { 66+, A3s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }

Some boards are pretty bad:

Board: Tc 9c 8c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.771% 27.23% 04.54% 55270 9209.00 { AdQs }
Hand 1: 68.229% 63.69% 04.54% 129262 9209.00 { 66+, A3s+, K7s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, A8o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }


Long story short: I think that if the Villain is competent, and he calls our 3-bet, its very very unlikely to be with hands that were too weak to raise. When our 3-bet gets called Alarm Bells should be going off.

If his range is wider than AJs+, AKo, 99+, then it is a call. If not, it is a fold. A 5/10 player slumming at 1/2 because he ran bad at 5/10 and 2/5: I'd call. He'll have worse than this he'll spite shove.

Solid LAGs can back down when they know someone has a strong hand, and by 3betting him, we are representing a big hand. Hopefully he will flat, so we can take it down on the flop, but if he folds now, theres nothing wrong with taking down a small pot (after all we don't even have a hand).

If we call pre, are we calling him down 3 streets all-in with ace high just because we're ahead of his range?

that is the whole point about 3betting, we are the one who can win with a cbet without a hand while he is calling to try to hit something (not to mention we can control the size of the pot since we're the ones who select the bet sizes). And even if he calls the flop, this is the time to splash some water on your face and play poker post flop.

I think flatting this type of villain pf is a mistake. It's not like he's a maniac who will go crazy with air post flop. He was described as a "Solid" LAG, not a spaz maniac.

If poker were only that easy. But yes, if we are ahead of his range on a given street then we will call or raise. If we are behind then we will fold unless we are getting good odds to continue (or can successfully bluff). I can't teach you how to play heads up poker but that's essentially what this would be and even heads up we shouldn't be 3-betting AQ if our opponent will not call with worse.

What is the "reasoning" behind this garbage? No one is ever forced to do anything.

(IMO) we are in position here, we can decide if we want to play a big pot, not the villain. If we call the pot isn't going to be obnoxious in size, we're not forced to do anything other than play poker in position.

I don't think I would ever fold on the flop even knowing he's likely to double barrel. Really it doesn't matter how good this guy is, he's not going to abuse me oop. He's going to have to bet at least twice to win the pot, he can never push me off my hand unless I open myself up to it, meaning I'm only bet/calling. If I bet at anytime it's going to be for value.

Overall I'm likely to play passive/callish unless I flop something I'm willing to go with and even then I likely wouldn't drop the hammer till later streets. AQ plays extremely well in position vs a guy who will bet worse A's and Q's for me and probably bets all his air on the flop which I beat to.

My main point is this doesn't have to be a big pot or a tough spot. however as played by hero, 3! pre, well then the decision was already made to play a big pot and so I'd then be gii once 4 bet.

If your going to advocate Flatting shouldn't we have some sort of a plan. It is a 10x raise that is a common size from this villan. His range is certainly wide and personally im ok with 3 betting for value and taking down the pot pre. When we are the agressor and have position it is far better than just position. We know villan is opening wide so let's make him pay and if we win 15 bb its a good result.

The description of a tilting 2/5 and 5/10 player That doesn't respect the stakes he is playing makes this a call for me. The one thing Will acknowledge is the slight tank, which is usually a monster but this guy is used to leveling wars. This could just be a reverse tell. So all in all I think this is a marginal + EV spot. If villan ever shoves weak suited Ax hands it becomes far more profitable. Let's ride the varience and put this guy on mega tilt.

Folding pre seems like the worst option imo. I prefer a call pre since we have positions. As played I probably call here against this villain. Against standard 1/2 players it's a fold though.

But these are simply not things that solid LAGs do very often. They don't flat 3bets OOP and play fit or fold like the typical weak 1/2 players do.

Wow, this thread kinda blew up. I almost didn't post this hand because I thought the play was pretty standard. Glad I did, as it appears the consensus is that flatting is better. As I've said in a few other threads, I'm transitioning over from LHE so there are probably plenty of spots where I just say "lol value town" and raise when calling is the better option. Definitely something I'll work on and I appreciate everyone's insight.

who said anything at all about folding? I said I would never be folding? I advocated flatting as opposed to 3 betting but not folding.

something else to think about over all (not really this exact hand) is what hands you want to be 3 betting when your deep in general. The deeper you get the less 3 betting I would be doing overall.

Sure your still going to be 3 betting your premiums. I would mix in suited connectors/gappers and suited Ax's, Kx's for balance, but hands like AQ, JJ, KQs and the like I would lean toward calling with in position. The deeper the game gets, the more I want to see flops and make straights and flushes, or at least play hands that pick up straight and flush draws. Pairs and big A's get tougher to play, especially out of position.

IMO you want to make your money over the course of multiple streets. The focus should be on post flop as opposed to pre flop. You don't want to be playing for your stack w/ one pair (over pairs/tptk) when deep really ever, less 3 betting of the merged variety will help in accomplishing this.

I think your missing the point. Your not "taking control" of the hand when you decide to 3 bet this kind of player. Your opening the door for him to bluff us rather easily. 3! is actually letting him off the hook. Making him play oop w/ a weaker range over the course of three streets is how you control this type of player.

Unless your advocating 3 betting to get it in vs his 4 bets, which I would agree AQ is ahead of. 3 bet/fold is easily the worst line available imo.

Sorry that part wasn't for you response since you didn't mention folding but t was mentioned in the thread.

Pair 33%. Straight some low %. Trips some low %. 2 pair some low %. Boats/Quads some low %.

Also, you're ignoring the number of times flops come favorable for us like 3 suits to our ace suit (4 flush). Or flops that are paired boards with low cards (i.e. 449).

Just, I can't see us continuing less than 50% of the time on the flop.

If your plan is to shut it down unless you connect with the flop, fold pre.

GRUNCH

Few comments on this hand.

Villain is not the typical 1/2nl player, in effect he is a 2/5nl player and quasi 5/Tnl player who is playing what to him is the kiddie game. He is stuck $1k and has been aggro and fairly loose with a wide range at the table.

The thing to note about playing villains like this is that they aren't really going to do what you expect. They aren't going to roll over on their back and expose their belly to you in submission because you raise them or 3-bet them.

So, whenever you are in a game with a villain like this, you have to be prepared to go to war whenever you raise him because his ego isn't going to let him be "outplayed" by some 1/2nl player.

As played, I absolutely love the 3-bet, great adjustment and the correct play with AQ vs this villain. Unfortunately, he 4-bet shoved us and in effect he outplayed us because AQ is a horrible hand to have when facing a 4-bet shove.

So the argument now becomes, "Can/Should we play for stacks with AQ vs this villain?"

I wish I could have seen villain's demeanor at the table, granted, I think we level ourselves a lot with soul reads and trying to pick up physical tells. I maintain that in LLSNL soul reads and physical tells should only comprise about 10% of the information we use to make our decisions. In this case, I literally am on the fence whether we call his ship with AQ and thus I would use physical tells to help my decision.

THe other important consideration is how often you have been folding to him. If he has been pushing you around and overbet blasting you frequently and you've folded each time then I'd call.

Hmmmm.....

As with anything, it comes down to ranging. Would this V ship it in this spot with KQ or AJ? That is the question!!!!!. If we can answer yes to this question, then we would be correct to play for stacks.

Unless he is blinded by tilt he has got to know that a 3-bet in 1/2nl is always JJ+.

So, lets give villain a range of 99+, AQ+, KQs

So against this range, our AQ is behind

We have to call $215 to win $345 meaning we are getting around 1.6:1 odds

We need about 1.5:1 odds to call, so basically this is a 0EV decision, slightly +EV.

I am of the opinion that if we are facing an all-in situation in which longterm that situation is 0EV that unless we are firmly pot committed we can just fold.

Sometimes, we just get outplayed. It happens.

Going forward though, I think the take away is that when you get villains that are aggro, we need to firmly understand how our actions will impact their aggressiveness. In the case of villains like this, don't raise them unless you are willing to go to war because they just aren't going to roll over on their bellies and surrender.

So, there are two ways we can deal with these types of villains.

#1) is that we 3-bet them light, much lighter than AQ. 99+, AT+, KJ+ and even throw a few SCs and S1Gs like T8s, 89s (10% of our 3-betting light range can consist of SCs and S1Gs). Initially our 3-bets "should" illicit flats and folds, but in the event we get shoved on, then we don't make an equity mistake by folding the weaker part of our 3-betting range.

#2) We go to war with our 3-betting range and only 3-bet hands we will play for stacks with: TT+, AQ+

There is also image considerations. IMAGE is a big component when we are facing super aggro players. How they see us will dictate how they respond to our aggression. And from your initial post (only post I read) this seems to be the missing ingredient. How does V see you? Does he respect you? Does he think you are a thinking player? Does he see you as a typical 1/2nl rec-fish? Have you been over folding to his aggression?

So.....

overall, I think a fold is fine here. Sometimes we get outplayed.

Going forward, try to get a handle on the above, especially your perceived image as perceived by villain. How he sees us should impact our decision. If he sees us as nitty then we can/should definitely widen our 3-betting light range against him until he adjust (obviously we want to pick our spots when 3-betting light, ideally spots where we can iso dead money and are in position). If he sees us as weak/tight then we should be prepared for pushback.

Hope something in all this rambling helped.

In a vacuum, fold is fine. Against this particular villain, I think it is really close either way, not a glaring error to fold or to call.

great discussion...

i have done both lines a lot and i adjust my play based on the villains aggression tendencies, i hate to 3! with AK/AQ agains aggro players because we miss a lot of flops and they put us more on AK hands than overpairs, we have to then CB flops with air.

what worked for me is flatting IP/OOP and let him value own himself if I hit and fold flop if i miss.

The problem with this is we miss 66% of the time. Just flatting a villan that opens this wide is surely a mistake. We fold the best hand far too often playing fit or fold IMO.

that of course is the default play and we adjust if he abuses it by raising him OTF on boards that missed his range as well. also, typical adjustment against this people is tightening our 3! range.

So OP plays snug, he decides to 3b a good lag on the button, I'm not sure this is the best play here, we allow lag to make correct folds vs us. If Villian is a Lag spew or is a fit and fold type of player then sure 3b for value and doesn't really matter what we flop vs the fit and fold player, we have position. So in the OP scenario vs this Villian, I'm going to flat in position and let him play OOP. When we raise he can put range u pretty accurately but a flat keeps our range much wider and again we got position.