This,+1

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This is how I approach it, my main points were:

1. Making this adjustment to an entire play pool seems way too extreme

2. If anyone is folding AKo pre based on a certain V's perceived range of QQ+, they have to be folding QQ and AKs as well to stay consistent with their logic.

Yep but with the correct stack sizes we may want to call with QQ or AKs for implied odds.

You are putting up strawman arguments. Nobody as far as i am concerned have argued to fold AK pre to the entire playerpool. Several posters,me included- have stated that we have no problem folding AK pre to _nits_.

That is not weak tight, its not "way too extreme"- its simply well aimed exploitative strategy.

The best exploit against nits who only wait for the nutz before they will put any significant money into the pot, is simply to not give them any appropriate action. That means folding RIO hands when they show aggression preflop (like being able to dump hands like AQ and AK), but of course we call with big pair cracker hands like small PP or good suited connectors if the stacksize allows for it.

LOL, the original poster specifically said "against this player pool."

It's not a straw man argument to say that if you are folding AK then I guess you are folding AKs and QQ for the same reasons. It's just an observation about logical consistency.

This topic has been beat to death. We're all talking in circles and saying approximately the same thing.

Its not a strawman if the premise of the entire thread per OP is making the adjustment against the entire pool.

FWIW I acknowledged in post #23 that not one poster has agreed with OP about making the adjustment to fold AKo pre to a 3! from anyone in the entire player pool, instead only against nits.

As a side note I thought it was interesting to point out that AKs has a couple percent more equity vs OP's stated range for V and that QQ performs absolutely horribly against that range so those should be folded to any V who you would fold AKo to, unless your 200bb-300bb deep like WereBeer pointed out. Only an observation.

Magnum is right, this horse is dead, I digress.

We should be trying to learn each individual's tendencies as much as possible so that we can tailor our strategies as precisely as possible rather than simply having default strategies against the entire player pool. That being said, in the games I played 10+ years ago, 3bets meant KK+ and were more heavily weighted towards AA than KK so exploitably folding AK was not really that difficult. I've folded AK to a single open before, simply because the player's opening range is AK+.

I wonder if some of the responses in this thread are a result of some players not having much experience against these types of players.

It’s normal for people to think everyone thinks the same way we do, but some people view things very differently.

Have you guys seen the vlog by OMC? His videos show us the way a nit thinks and plays his hands. He is VERY reluctant to put money into the pot.

If he makes a 3-bet to $25 or more it had better be AA because every single dollar means a lot to him. I saw some recent PF spots in his videos where he limped in with KQs, 99, and AQo. He raised with KK and QQ and raised bigger with them.

When a nit gets tricky, it isn’t usually because he widens his range. They are far more likely to surprise you by playing a big hand less aggressively than they should.

Now that I think about it, I don’t remember him 3-betting to $25; maybe he has but it’s a HUGE amount for him.

In a recent video of his he said he didn’t play in the 1-3 game with Trooper because the 1-3 game was too big for him.

Why is it horrible to fold QQ and AKs? That’s like saying it’s horrible because something that almost never happens might happen.

It will almost never happen because that’s only a tiny part of our range and we will almost never get 3-bet when we do have those hands. We’re FAR more likely to get called or watch everyone fold.

I would be reluctant to fold to an entire player pool though. It needs to be someone like the OMC that I’ve observed played really nitty.


If this is a game the OP regularly plays in he can see the nit get calls from other players. Also if villains are making the types of moves you’re talking about, it will quickly become obvious you shouldn’t put them on such a tight range.

This is all correct. The standard range against an old nit who hardly plays hands is 4 bet AA, KK, QQ and call with JJ TT and AK os. This is a good range against that type for many reasons.

But if you KNEW they only 3 bet aces or kings then your range should just be aces for 4 bets. And call with sc/3 pair if you know he will continue and stack sizes are deep. But I have never played in a game where more than one guy stayed that tight for multiple sessions. Someone who is that tight doesn’t last in nlhe games unless they are extraordinarily good games. They are playing face up and people will call with sc 3 pair to crack them and then when they get cracked they will get annoyed and they have no idea how to play because QQ isn’t even in their range. You have to know a lot about a player to just assume your range is restricted to kk+.