You’re a typical 1/3 player but want to take a shot at a higher limit. What are your thoughts on buying in short, say 50 bbs, at a higher limit to get some reps at tougher tables? Say for example you like playing short stacked and can be very aggressive to win pots when needed. You like getting all your chips in the middle. You also make great money at your real job and one 500$ buy-in doesn’t really mean all that much to you.

Asking for a friend ��

Its a bad idea because now you are playing differently then youre used to at higher stakes. Buy in for the same BBs you usually do and just play a lot tighter until you get enough reads on the players.

I BI short (66bbs) at my current / only steaks, so no surprise I'd recommend it when moving up steaks.

Actually think it is a complete no-brainer, as we can get our feet wet at a steak that we're not used to, and once we get our feet under us / become comfortable with the bigger swings $-wise / see how the game plays compared to our previous one / etc., we can then BI for more (if / when we think that's a good thing for us).

GcluelessshortstackingnoobG

I don't like buying in short for various reasons.

First and foremost, I want to have enough stack depth that I can get involved in pots when I see good spots, but without feeling like I'll be pot committed if I bet or call a bet.

Secondly, every good player will mark you as a fish when they see you buying in for a short stack. That will lead to them calling you down lighter and relentlessly putting pressure on your entire range.

Third, I want to win as much as possible when I jam all in with the best of it, and I want to have enough stack depth to allow my opponents to think I COULD be bluffing.

Fourth, I just never saw the point of someone buying in for a short stack because they weren't comfortable playing a bigger stack. What do they do when they double up, and their now-medium stack size makes it awkward to play their previous fold-or-shove strategy?

Fifth, and it kind of goes along with the first point - I want to have enough stack depth that I can put pressure on opponents when I need to bluff. Playing a short stack limits that ability.

Sixth, whenever I see someone playing a short stack, I refuse to pay them off, just on principle, knowing there's a higher likelihood of a hit-and-run. If I see multiple short stacks on a table, I won't play at that table.

I recently made the jump from 1/3 to 2/5, after years of people telling me I should move up, but feeling like I wasn't ready. Turns out 2/5 doesn't play much differently than the 1/3 games I was playing, so I feel totally comfortable buying in for the max.

That is really two different things. In the first case your buying in short to limit your loses at a table full of unknown but probably somewhat better players with different styles then your used to. In the second you want to gamble and try to take advantage of opponents unwilling to put in a lot when they are close to coin flipping.
Both make a certain amount of sense in the right situation but you need to know which you are in.

This is a serious response: there are lots of ways to play winning poker. Short stacking can be one of them. If you’re going to short stack then make sure you’re playing a short stack strategy, not just playing flop bingo with a short stack.

Starting with your last point I find that 2/5 is easier than 1/3 when you factor in the rake is less harsh. The play is sometimes even worse, I played in a new room a few months back that had PLO players mostly play 2/5 NL waiting for a seat which is a gold mine. You have to watch out for the 5/10 player waiting for his seat at 2/5 not the 2/5 regs anyway and you can easily spot and avoid this person.

As far as most of your points it highlights your perception of short stacking and is a great illustration as to why you cant just play normal stack poker and switch thinking short stacking is easier. There is still a learning curve and a lot of weird spots that dont usually come up. Sometimes you have to jam turns with A high. If you are playing 50bbs you also need to learn 60-90bb poker and there are adjustments to be made all the way up to 100. Im not trying to claim short stacking is rocket science but if you walk into it with zero knowledge you are probably going to lose more than just playing what BB you usually buy in for and just playing tighter preflop.

All the points you list can be turned around and used as an advantage for the short stacker btw. My opponents thinking Im bad sounds like a great situation to be in.

^^^This

If you're good enough to change your strategy from a good 1/3 100 BB game to a good short stacking 2/5 game, you're probably good enough to beat the 2/5 game full stacked.

I didn't see the word "winning" in your description of yourself. Typical 1/3 players are losers in the game. My guess is that this is more of you're bored with playing 1/3 and want some more excitement in playing higher. By short stacking, you'll get the adrenalin rush that many poker players seek by playing for more money and being all in.

The down side of playing flop bingo is that in time, 2/5 will seem boring and you'll be playing flop bingo at 5/10.

I was always under the impression that SS'ing made the most sense online where you can rathole between tables. You need to remain short stacked for every hand you play. Doubling up with QQ and then having to quit the game entirely for an hour just to go back on a list seems like a huge hit to your hourly. If you're going to end up fullstacked in 1 hand anyway then might as well start fullstacked and get the most out of it.

I always had the same concern regarding shortstacking (i.e. what to do after we double up?). But as it turns out it really isn't that much of a concern.

First, while it is possible you may luck out and double up early in your session, it is much more likely you actually end up sitting on the shortstack for literally hours (as shortstacking requires incredibly tight and patient play). And so then in hour 4 when you finally get the double up, you now only have an hour or two left in your session and can make decisions as to whether to get up now or just do the best you can.

Secondly, while you can't rathole in most live environments, you can switch tables. So if you suddenly find yourself sitting on a deeper stack at a table full of other difficult deepstacks, you can simply scope out to sit at a different table with lots of shorter stacks (effectively ratholing) and/or non-difficult deepstacks.

Finally, if this is your only outing this week as a rec player (like me) and you find yourself sitting on a deeper stack but don't feel like calling it a night yet, it isn't as if you're -EV. You just might not be as +EV as you are short, but you can still do alright. Just do the best you can until you figure your session is done.

GcluelessshortstackingnoobG

I think if you are planning to move up because you are winning at 1/3, then short stacking is a good strategy to get a feel for bigger stakes. That said, if you can afford the stakes and you are a winning player, just move up and buy in full and play tight until you figure things out.

If you are doing it to just have some fun and get a feel for 2/5, playing short is fine and can be lots of fun.

buying in short is great if you are rolled for such things

The proportionally lower rake does seem to change things. In the local 1/3 games, the standard open is around $15. It's often the same size at 2/5. I definitely see fewer multi-way pots and a lot less limping at 2/5, but it seems like the number of fish at any random table is about the same. I don't see many regs making the wild plays I've seen regs make at 1/3.

After my first few 2/5 sessions, I feel like it takes me a lot less time to figure out how everyone at the table is playing, as compared to 1/3, where it can take a couple orbits to a couple hours.

Short stacking definitely requires a different style of play, one which I find challenging to adopt, especially in softer games at lower stakes. To play the way I'm comfortable playing, I need to be on an even footing with the rest of the table.

To your point, about my points being potential advantages - I think it's dependent on player skill. Most of the players I've seen buying in for $100 at 1/3 are truly horrendous. I haven't spent enough time at 2/5 to form an opinion about players who buy in short. The one strong example I have was a guy who bought in for $200 and was pretty terrible, but that's just one data point.

One of my 2/5 playing friends advised me to buy into 2/5 for $500 and just play tight if I wanted to move up in stakes. I still couldn't do it. I bought in for the $1k max and was up a full buy in after 2hrs in my first session (admittedly, I was running good that night, having just taken second in a tournament).

It just depends on what your goal is. Is your goal primarily to have fun? Is buying for 50bbs at double the stakes to shove a short stack light against a tougher lineup going to be maximizing your fun? Then go for it.

Some people might have a short term goal to do something like that. But what are your medium term to long term goals? Are you planning to move up in stakes over time as you get better at poker?

If you really want to get better at live poker at bigger stakes, you need to learn how to play 100bbs, 150bbs, 200bbs, and 250bb+ deep.

Just be honest with yourself about your poker goals. Don't lie to yourself. You can easily figure out what makes sense for you as long as you don't lie to yourself.

Remember Poker Table Ratings? I looked up some SS'rs back in the day and saw they were killing it at NL200+. However at LLSNL SS'rs seem to be the biggest fish in the game, buying in short just to limit their losses more than anything. Disregarding PLO shortstacking which is lethal, NLHE shortstacking in a live environment seems really bad.

Live players being terrible at shortstacking proves that shortstacking is a bad idea the same way that live players being terrible at playing NLHE (at any stack depth) proves that playing NLHE is a bad idea.

I used to try real short stacking, buying in for the minimum $100 or $200 at 2/5. There are some things you can do with it. Go allin preflop or on the flop or the turn with a draw. It is also easier to play TPTK or whatever, as you may be OK getting allin in a raised pot with it. You also don't lose such huge amounts at a time.

However, real short it can be hard to call with a pp multiway or 3! without shoving etc., so I prefer to keep at least about 70xBB. Sure it might be good to learn to play 300+ BBs deep, but playing a short stack is also a skill.