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Theory Question Live poker Theory Question Live poker

07-29-2013 , 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aggo
value of hands (or w/e u wanna call it) vs fish or vs regs, esp in position

im just not a fan of 3bing a ton in soft line ups.

if he's opening hands like 94ss i have no idea how you're not rofl crushing him postflop. especially since most guys who are opening 94ss are just tilted at the moment and have no idea how their range stacks up against a tag postflop. just 3bet your trash(like q9o) and flat everything else.
I don't agree with this. we want to isolate bad players as much as possible in or out of position. If the whole table is terrible than I guess it's ok. If not than we want to play as many hands HU as possible with the fish. Otherwise, we open the door for other decent to good players to win big pots against the fish.
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07-31-2013 , 12:03 AM
Your listed hand range must be an exaggeration. I highly doubt even the most aggressive of skilled live regulars are repeatedly opening with hands weaker than K7s, 75s, and JTo in early position. At some point, all your "table bullies that try too hard" have experimented with hands like Q6s and K2s, but after a number of trials, they eventually realize that opening too light from early position is far from a profitable endeavor. No decent player is playing 85% of his hands and raising 94s and J4s from under-the-gun in a full game while his temper is under control.

I certainly agree that one incredibly tough opponent at the table should be but a fraction of a much larger picture. When gaging the profitability of a low- to mid-stakes game, you can apply the following methodology if you're a good/solid player:

-Start with a baseline of 4 big blinds per hour at a table of 8 nits (arguably not worth your time, as there should be better games elsewhere).
-1 point equates to 2 big blinds per hour.
-Add one-half to 5 points for each fish. I tend to rate most fish at +1. +5 is reserved for the biggest regular whale in Orange County.
-Subtract one-half of a point for each professional.
-Subtract one point for the incredibly tough and extremely aggressive professional. This can easily exacerbate to -5 if you allow him to shatter your psyche and confidence. You could also reduce this to -0.5 or even -0.25 with the proper approach.

When a good and very loose/aggressive live regular is present, it's always going to modestly offset your profitability at that table. If, for example, he's opening hands like 98o and 96s from middle position, you have to decide how and if you want to play weak offsuit broadway and good suited connectors (hands that would've otherwise been very profitable had the action just folded to you) in late position. And while most good players advocate playing extremely tight out of position against a tough and potentially better opponent, you can't allow him to mercilessly steal your blinds with 100% frequency either.

He can very potentially make your life miserable each time you sit down with him, but you can't let him deter you from playing well in a highly lucrative game. So what methods could you employ to handle such an opponent?

1. SIT ACROSS THE TABLE. If you're not 1-3 seats on his left, it'll be much more difficult for him to steal your blinds. If he's not 1-3 seats on your left, he'll have much fewer opportunities to abuse you with the benefit of position. You'll very infrequently play hands heads-up against each other.

2. "IT'S A FUNNY FEELING - BEING TAKEN UNDER THE WING OF A DRAGON." Sit to his immediate left, and stay out of his pots unless you have decent equity for the situation. When you have a premium starting hand, do not 3-bet him (not even with AK) when there are still other players left to act! Your 3-bet will simply shut-out weaker players from whom you could've extracted significant value, and now you're heads-up against a tough opponent who knows the strength of your hand; he won't give you action unless he can crack [AA/KK] or exploit [AK/Q] you. This strategy is particularly applicable when you recognize that he's a clearly better player than you are. A player of this caliber is likely to induce tilt and insecurity in other players at the table, so you should be more than content taking advantage of those players once he's decided to fold (again, he's not going to play anything remotely close to 85% of his hands at a 9-handed table). Another caveat to having a player like this at the table is that if you're not overly focused on concocting an elaborate plan to outplay him, you can devote more mental focus toward observing and trying to understand his decision-making process. This is an incredible learning opportunity for you, and you may even develop new skills that you can incorporate into your own game. If you haven't offended him by tanking and pretending like you're legitimately contemplating 3-betting him light every time he raises pre-flop before sighing and folding (because honestly, you're not going to 3-bet him light), or by making such inappropriate internet-speak comments like "can he ever have tens plus there?" instead of "I had a feeling he had AK" when some fish commends you for correctly playing 99 for 100 big blinds pre-flop, he may even offer you an occasional peek at his hole cards or shed insight on a rather peculiar decision he recently made.

3. TABLE CHANGE. You don't have to play at that table, especially if that one player's presence completely throws you off balance. There are other tables with those stakes, whether in that casino or at a nearby venue if you're in LA, Vegas, or Macau. Sometimes you can achieve a similar or better risk-return profile by playing in a bigger game on a short stack. Some days, it's more profitable for you to play in a smaller or different (PLO) game altogether. It's incredibly foolish to not game select and to continue stubbornly playing in a less profitable game when you're a live professional. You must reassess at least once an hour changes in your game's profitability (reading game boards and must-move lists is an essential skill).

4. TAKE A BULL BY THE HORNS. 3-bet him with speculative hands. 3-bet him with Ax. 3-bet him with any value hand with which you normally would've raised. And of course, 3-bet him with your premium hands. If he 4-bets you, 5-jam or peel a flop light with Axs. Call his raises with anything remotely playable in late position. Float and raise-bluff with a high frequency, especially with hands like gutshots and two overcards with a backdoor flush draw. If he's truly a first-rate opponent, he'll back the f**k off and reduce his VPIP from 50% to 25% if you are, in fact, just as good of a player as he is. However, if he's Vietnamese, or if you both consider yourselves to be the better player, be prepared to go to war. Wars are expensive, so you better have the bankroll to afford it and the mental fortitude to not tilt (should you happen to lose a hand against him) and maintain your 'A' game against the other 7 players at the table.

5. SHORT STACK. You'd be shockingly surprised as to how much edge you're not actually giving away when you decide to sit in a game for 50 big blinds instead of 500 big blinds (to cover some aggressive whale). You'd be even more surprised as to how, with a short stack, you might actually turn the tide and have the edge against a superior player who plays too many hands. Most live professionals habitually (and often arguably incorrectly) buy-in for the maximum or enough to cover the table, and they don't adjust well to skilled short stack players. The general consensus among live professionals is that a short stack is conducive to a tight style of play. This rather biased view is far from correct, but not unjustifiable, because there really are no live players who can proficiently employ an aggressive short stack strategy.

6. PLAY SMART. If you're sitting in an uncapped game and the 5 fish and regulars in the 5 seats to your right have no more than 2,000 in front of them while the tough opponent and 2 very aggressive whales are on your left, each with approximately 20,000, do not buy-in for more than 2,000! Do not play large pots, especially out of position, against that tough player when the situation is, at best, marginally profitable. It's a live low- to mid-stakes cash game, so if you're at a table with him, there should be plenty of fruit on the tree, and you shouldn't have to constantly battle with him for that fruit. Make sure you're well-balanced and not discernibly exploitable if you do get involved with him. When he's in position, do not open hands like JTo from middle position unless you're balanced (like with a lot of suited connectors) and you have a very clear plan for him. The best players are far from perfect, and everybody has exploitable weaknesses. Pay very close attention to him (and everyone else, obviously), and figure out where he's vulnerable. Hopefully you'll evolve to become the better player (mostly through composure because skill set differences between the best regulars for a particular game are much less significant than professionals between different stakes), and with a more than sufficient bankroll for your game, you won't have to shy away from a gunfight; win, and table is yours.

Last edited by bigoiltrader; 07-31-2013 at 12:32 AM.
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07-31-2013 , 11:00 AM
Move to a seat with 3+ tight people to your left and 3b this guy like 15+% probably a merged range cause he'll call 3bs light
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08-01-2013 , 10:17 PM
bigoiltrader nailed it. a few minor additions:

I've played with 40% vpip (so ~25% utg) in some rare spots. The spots have to be correct, so the first thing you should learn is when an otherwise "solid" player might consider opening J6s in MP. The conditions are roughly
a)More than half of the table is not 3betting TT, and there isn't some good player 3betting QTo for value against him
b)No one is calling with 78o in late position who plays great post-flop
c)There is one or more players who are fish, tilted, or simply not used to playing against a wide range.
d)There are no short-stacks (<75bb, but even <100bb is a concern) except for possible one short stack ubernit

When the conditions are not such, the first mistake you can make is to assume that the LAG is in fact opening wide. This is mistake a great source of profitability for an aggressive player.

I'm not very good, so here are the specific spots I make mistakes in, and you could try to exploit:
1. Getting 3bet from an uncertain late position range. This mostly means a good player who hasn't previously played back at me. Usually I'm continuing in such a spot with AJo, ATs, 77+ or so (which by the way is a tiny portion of my opening range, so if you've never 3bet me before, you should do so a couple times with atc for an absurdly easy couple hundred bucks). Also, it's not exactly fun to play AJo against a good player oop in a 3bet pot.
2. Getting 3bet from a ~8% merged range. Polarized ranges are probably easier to deal with because I don't feel like I have to 4bet/fold nearly as much; I can flat and keep the PF bluffs with hands that frequently dominate them. Usually when people 3bet wider the equity gap isn't huge and/or they are afraid to 5bet JJ-QQ so that spot is not a problem.
3. Getting thin valued, especially on rivers when I have about top pair and some draws missed. If you flat in position, you should be trying to get 3bets with top pair medium kicker at times. In general, don't polarize post-flop since that makes my dubious hands do almost as well as a tight player's.

Oh, and don't move seats. Especially if you make a habit of it, this is 10/20+, and there is a businessman at the table who will get annoyed at everyone shifting seats all the time. It won't really help you anyway because anyone half-decent will adjust ok against your seat change.
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08-02-2013 , 02:22 AM
There are A LOT of lucky fish out there with deep pockets.
1/3 NL cash game.. they don't care what you bet, they will call...
They will beat your QQ All-in with calling you 34s pre-flop for $200 and hit a runner, runner
flush.
They will beat your Axs with their 98o by hitting a straight on the turn calling your $200 all in preflop.
I see it time and time again .. LAG either make a ton or go crazy broke but playing tight can only double or triple you up 1-2 times every few hours. I've never seen so many crappy hands win in a matter of 3-4 hours with this one guy and table. We all lose good hands but i've lost AA, KK, QQ, JJ more than once at this table.. if all the money beforehand is all i got.. it's almost impossible to intimidate them. They have terrible reads on each other but someone gets lucky or just rebuys..goes into further debt so the table continues to be NUTS. Crazy LAG (you can call them fish) Cash players play their chips like they are tourney chips, not dollars ..if you got 1 or 2, you can win but when you are sitting with 9 people and 4 of them are crazy LAG and the other 4 play tight aggressive..
the only way to be in the hand almost is to be all-in and then it becomes a crapshoot so where's the skill?

I made myself fold and fold and fold..
KK played and won
JJ played and lost
Axs played and lost
AKo and AQo folded preflop but would have won
one on the flop and the other on the river.. again both would've been all-in.
I really didn't play too many other hands or play them too deep (beyond a flop) in a medium session. I picked up 2 pair with weak suited connectors in the BB but the guy with all the chips playing Q-rag all night .. I felt like he had a straight or 2 pair with A and something else to beat my crappy 2 pair so I folded when he started betting more, I almost took the risk but this guy seriously could not lose.

I'd personally rather play with tighter players that might try stuff here and there but
are not making every hand hundreds..

What fun is it for everyone to have to be all-in and wait for cards to decide your fate?
I guess it was good that I had people dominated pre-flop before getting all my money in but it doesn't matter when the river comes..

So there might be SKILL in poker.. but this table is all gambling.
Thoughts on these types of tables where people are playing and winning with Q-rag,
83o, 74o, etc?
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08-02-2013 , 02:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by snapperhead
There are A LOT of lucky fish out there with deep pockets.
1/3 NL cash game.. they don't care what you bet, they will call...
They will beat your QQ All-in with calling you 34s pre-flop for $200 and hit a runner, runner
flush.
They will beat your Axs with their 98o by hitting a straight on the turn calling your $200 all in preflop.
I see it time and time again .. LAG either make a ton or go crazy broke but playing tight can only double or triple you up 1-2 times every few hours. I've never seen so many crappy hands win in a matter of 3-4 hours with this one guy and table. We all lose good hands but i've lost AA, KK, QQ, JJ more than once at this table.. if all the money beforehand is all i got.. it's almost impossible to intimidate them. They have terrible reads on each other but someone gets lucky or just rebuys..goes into further debt so the table continues to be NUTS. Crazy LAG (you can call them fish) Cash players play their chips like they are tourney chips, not dollars ..if you got 1 or 2, you can win but when you are sitting with 9 people and 4 of them are crazy LAG and the other 4 play tight aggressive..
the only way to be in the hand almost is to be all-in and then it becomes a crapshoot so where's the skill?

I made myself fold and fold and fold..
KK played and won
JJ played and lost
Axs played and lost
AKo and AQo folded preflop but would have won
one on the flop and the other on the river.. again both would've been all-in.
I really didn't play too many other hands or play them too deep (beyond a flop) in a medium session. I picked up 2 pair with weak suited connectors in the BB but the guy with all the chips playing Q-rag all night .. I felt like he had a straight or 2 pair with A and something else to beat my crappy 2 pair so I folded when he started betting more, I almost took the risk but this guy seriously could not lose.

I'd personally rather play with tighter players that might try stuff here and there but
are not making every hand hundreds..

What fun is it for everyone to have to be all-in and wait for cards to decide your fate?
I guess it was good that I had people dominated pre-flop before getting all my money in but it doesn't matter when the river comes..

So there might be SKILL in poker.. but this table is all gambling.
Thoughts on these types of tables where people are playing and winning with Q-rag,
83o, 74o, etc?
I had a nice laugh, especially when I pictured you as some minority type from Compton or Inglewood with a thick street accent. Thanks for the post.
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08-02-2013 , 02:53 AM
Ha I'm not and that is funny Bigoiltrader.. glad I could help heh.
Are more games out there people pushing all their money in on any 2 cards from
any position and just trying to outbet people.. and occasionally hitting hands by doing so?
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08-04-2013 , 04:03 PM
I only saw this mentioned once in the thread but what I've noticed is that the most important weapon for a "SuperLAG" is a very deep stack. I think their basic strategy is this: Play 5-10 uncapped. Buy in for 20k. Open J4s under the gun. Get 3 bet by AA. Call. Flop 2 pair. Get it all in and LOSE. Double up the 500 stack. Repeat as many times as necessary until you WIN. Stack all the chips.

The counter strategy for the short stack is to leave after doubling once or twice. But the SuperLAG almost doesn't care. There's still 8 people at the table that are "licking their chops" to get it in against this guy and as long as he has them covered he's going to get em all. Will this guy have sessions when he looses 50k? I'm sure. Does he care? I don't know. Is he extremely tough to sit down and play against for 8 hours? Terribly.

If you're wealthy enough to buy in for as much as he does (I'm not) and are comfortable playing that deep then I suppose have a field day. The one guy in my poker room that does this never gets challenged on this level (at least not in my poker room; I'd love to see him at a table that all buys in as deep).
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08-04-2013 , 04:28 PM
I mean if he buys in for 20K than he has the 500-1000 buy-in SUPER LAGs covered but they were going all-in and reloading so they would do it vs. him all day with anything!
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