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Theory against playing vs fish Theory against playing vs fish

03-17-2019 , 08:51 PM
Hi this is more of a general question but I'm going to give a specific hand history as an example.

Eff stacks are 240
Fish open limps on H straddle for 5, 1 other limp.
Hero has TT and raises to 30 (fish is real inelastic, could go more?) Fish is only caller in EP

F is 467r
V donks for 36
H grabs a stack of green and snap shoves for 210
V counts his chips in stacks of 10 and calls for less and asks if that's ok. ( big fish)
V had 54o for bottom pair and oesd, result is irrelevant. My question is would raising to maybe 100 or just calling be more +EV vs this V or do you guys not care about getting it AI even with a small equity edge. I have seen him call a 3x AI OTF with T2o high no pair so he's calling real wide. Probably the theoretical answer is going thinner for value but live in game do you think it's better to take all of your edges vs a fish so he may think he can possibly win?
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03-17-2019 , 09:40 PM
Pot is ~$100 when he donks and we have $210 behind, seems like an easy jam vs. a guy who is likely calling his entire donk range.
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03-18-2019 , 02:19 AM
Again this is a general question. Do you take all of the spots with small edges or do you wait for spots where you are 70/30 instead of 55/45. If I take the closer spots and lose will the fish tighten up and leave?
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03-18-2019 , 02:35 AM
Quote:
Do you take all of the spots with small edges or do you wait for spots where you are 70/30 instead of 55/45
It's not as simple as that, you can't really put V on a specific hand but rather a range. If you are crushing V's range and there's no way V can catch up, then betting small or checking to induce bluffs is best way.

If there are draws on the board and V has a chance to catch up, betting to charge those draws is best. In this case, there are draws and stack sizes are so awkward that even if you bet small, the turn is awkward and a jam for you regardless of what comes out. So why not just jam now and put V in a tough spot.

If you are slight ahead of V's range and stacks are semi deep to deep, go for value and re-evaluate after.
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03-18-2019 , 05:40 AM
seems fine
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03-18-2019 , 06:34 AM
In these scenarios, you're going to find you're beat most of the time when they call.
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03-18-2019 , 06:37 AM
If the fish is really aggressive or super stationy they won't be around very long so it's all the more important to push your advantage while you can. By the time you've waited for your guaranteed 70/30 spot they could easily have gone broke already.
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03-18-2019 , 06:39 AM
Hero should be looking for the most profitable way to play a hand. In some situations hero may have a small edge now but can get a bigger edge later in a hand.

The key things are how readable villain is and how bad will he call. You should be looking for a predictable passive stationary/chasing villain. One that we can easily read his range and know which turns to bet and which we can easily fold if he bets or check/raises hero. The second bit means he will stick around on the turn too often.

The idea is simple but applying it in practice can be hard. Fish have different profiles and their profiles may make no sense or follow no math at all. For the real fish with no idea what their hand value is you just have to watch them and learn what they play and what they fold. For other fish the predictable part breaks down because they will make spazz bluffs if you check the flop.

As for the specific example you give. It's a good example of needing to just know your villain. There is some number he will call preflop and it varies from villain to villain. On the flop the question becomes, can hero tell which turn cards to fold (which can actually hard against such huge fish) and will villain still chase bad draws on the turn (varies but likely in this case).
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03-18-2019 , 05:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ipuntstax
Again this is a general question. Do you take all of the spots with small edges or do you wait for spots where you are 70/30 instead of 55/45. If I take the closer spots and lose will the fish tighten up and leave?
Well it's a not great example for that question because this hand just plays itself. We're ahead of the fish's range and this board is going to be horrible to play if we flat. We're shallow enough that we don't need to consider taking the tough route of flatting. We can just ship and be fairly indifferent. If fishy folds, fine, if he calls with his donking range...fine. Deeper or with different hands/boards, we may flat, it depends, that's poker.

You never really know whether you are 70/30 or 55/45. You try to hand read and work out whether you're ahead or behind a range, then make correct decisions. If it's really thin, it's better to let it go IMO because rake steals our edge.

EDIT

Against real live ones, the entire table dynamic changes. Good/aggressive players try to iso the fish in position, bad ones overcall/overlimp with ATC hoping to hit gin and stack the fish. Pay attention to other players' adjustments, it's a gold mine.

Last edited by WereBeer; 03-18-2019 at 06:06 PM.
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03-18-2019 , 07:41 PM
If we are 55-45 range vs range ... or we think we are 55-45 hand vs Villain's range (fish or not) ... we don't have fold equity unless we are aggressive.

Even if we only have 10% fold equity, that can make 55-45 look like 65-35.

By definition, SOME of Villain's hands are in the bottom half of his range. I'll settle for 10%.

That's good enough for me.
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03-18-2019 , 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
In these scenarios, you're going to find you're beat most of the time when they call.
Interesting, do you prefer raising here then?
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03-18-2019 , 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomdemaine
If the fish is really aggressive or super stationy they won't be around very long so it's all the more important to push your advantage while you can. By the time you've waited for your guaranteed 70/30 spot they could easily have gone broke already.
This. When there's a whale at the table, we should be getting in as many pots as possible and getting stacks in whenever +ev. That doesn't mean to get stupid and starting limping garbage and playing like a fish. The $30 raise is good, but could be bigger. The jam was also good.
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