It's a 5x raise to $15, but that's a pretty standard open size at 1/3, and we're >230bb deep. I'm pretty sure J9s is a pure call defending the BB against a BTN open at this depth.

I think the second hand is a pretty significant overplay. Bottom two pair is not a particularly strong hand on this board this deep. You don't have to check-raise flop. Once you do, I think overbetting the turn is bad, unless you are against a massive whale/calling station type. Think it's a mistake to assume Villain jams turn over your overbet with a worse value hand (AA, AK, KQ etc).

I wouldn't fold pre myself but I don't think it's a ridiculous suggestion facing a 5x raise OOP in a high rake game.

BTW, I think the second hand is much more thread-worthy than the first one, which is extremely cut and dry.

I think it's safe to assume that V is opening all of the offsuit combos of QT and KJ when it folds to him on the BTN, since this would be the standard play. We can add in K9s and possibly K9o as well. There are sooo many combos we lose to here.

Oh, the second hand was total spew post-flop. No argument on that score. I was tilted from the previous hand and thought I'd be getting back the money I'd lost and then some.

pre is nearly pure 3b as you get > 100 bb. my guess would be the bigger the open size the more incentive we have to 3b as well.

re post you're not really supposed to do much xring at all as soon as they start using larger sizings (indicating polarized range). global xr is like 3.5% vs a larger size and like 9% vs a smaller cbet sizing. our actual hand combo (have to use j9o) is like 10% vs the 1/3 sizing and 5% vs the larger sizing but shows preference for one of the suit. would think you're going to be best off just not doing this at all. the way these boards work when both players can have the offsuit combos of the straight is very little raising in general and definitely not like depolarized bottom 2 stuff. if you do xr it xs the turn. its just way too much money going in with your hand

I dont think its total spew. Id find that call vs at least some Vs, just not the one described. Dont be too hard on yourself, id give you like a C- (bad play) not an F (total spew) haha.

The above is why I read these threads. Thanks!

I didn't hate the call in H2 (but now I do), but everything afterwards seems ambitious. C-R bottom 2 on KJ9 requires an unusual dynamic I don't think we have, though I see why you did.

Checking turn, def not calling a shove from V absent mega rage tilt signs from V and reads that they're a lagfish.

This logic is going to cost you a fortune

I had to go back to read the breakdown of Hand 2 because I *thought* OP was saying the Turn was a Ten—that is, the board was KJ9T and they both went nuts with two-pair vs a set on THAT board, lol.

The more expert you are, the wider you can "defend".

The less expert you are, the more "defend" should completely be removed from your playbook and you'd be better off only continuing with the top ~5% of hands (and of course looking for a table change if "defending" is integral to your winrate at this one).

Postflop was a pretty bad overplay/punt at this depth/board, so "defending" preflop isn't nearly as standard as you think it is, imo.

Gnothatin',justsayin'G

Main hand is a fold pre, look if you're going to cold calling 3bets then doing it in position with a decent hand and a possible skill edge is going to be the situation to do it. I wouldn't cold 4bet this hand either.

As played it's a call.

The epilogue hand (great word) is a straightforward BB defend for me as well even facing 5x (ETA: I have a leak that I don't 3bet from the BB nearly often enough). Flop is very dangerous, might be a check-call (or how about a donk?) but when your check-raise gets called I'm nervous which isn't where you want to be. As played this can't be AK or AA surely? I'd probably check the turn but as played it's probably a fold to the jam despite odds.

I appreciate the viewpoint. I do believe there are some instances when I'm defending the BTN or BB too wide, particularly when I'm running well and deep-stacked, as I was in this session, or when I think I have a skill advantage, as is often the case when I'm running good.

If you're referring to the post-flop play in the JT hand, I think once I get to the flop, and make top 2, there's just no getting away, when I'm only losing to sets, and it seemed much more likely V had an over-pair.

The second hand, with J9, definitely was an over-play, at least partly due to being tilted from the first hand, and not realizing it. I saw an opportunity to win back the money I'd just lost, with what looked like a reasonable hand to defend the BB with. Unlike the first hand, the board was much less favorable for my exact holding, and the SPR way too high for me to play it as aggressively as I did.

I hope you mostly agree. Respect your view either way.

Honestly, I was somewhat surprised at first, by how many here were saying JTs should just be a fold pre. It seemed to me that people here were more willing to cold-call raises, based on what I'd seen posted in other threads.

I realize many of my own comments in my threads may sound argumentative or defensive. I'm really just trying to understand the basis for other people's view, or explaining my own. In retrospect here, I see that my pre-flop call was really just the result of over-confidence that I could outplay my opponents post-flop, and over-confidence in my reads.

My read was pretty dead-on, and I think my post-flop line was correct, so the big takeaway for me is just to stop being so loose when I've been running over the table, which is a pretty big leak. Even if my read is right any my line correct, defending too wide is just going to get me into trouble, as it did in these two hands.

It's really hard to "outplay" people in lol SPR 2 pots. Basically best hand wins in most of these scenarios, and our hand ain't gonna be the best one nearly enough of the time for this price.

Gnothatin',justsayin'G

Understood, I think, and I think goes back to my earlier post, about being uncertain if people were saying JTs isn't a good enough hand to play regardless of stack depth, or specifically because of the stack depth.

Robots, with robot ranges, have it as a pure call for a 2.5x open for sure.
That doesn't magically make it fine to call 5x vs. a specific human.


Eg. Toy solves with CO opening 5x have J9s pure fold in SB, and like 20% call / 5% 3bet from BB.


I understand that humans are doing lots of random stuff, esp. so at 1-2/1-3, and we have to kind of guess about how to respond ... also that the preflop call in H2 is probably the least worst thing going on in either hand. But it's still bad to be so certain about applying spots that we know aren't close.

It's very bad with low SPR spots post because the game is basically who has the best one pair, and JT doesn't win that game. Also find it hard to believe you have a big skill edge in that game (biggest skill edge would be folding preflop IMO).

More generally it isn't great to be cold calling 3bets with JTs even if everyone is 1000bb deep, because you still don't know if you'll see a flop and then you'll have problems at large SPRs where having a J high flush isn't that great.
When you see stuff like this (or worse) on HCL or the lodge game or something, there are often a bunch of different things going on ... punt calls for screen time/lolz; very wide 3bet ranges; standup game; etc. ... you don't have any of those factors.

Yup, in this case here definitely lack of stack depth (as well as the fact the betting is still open and the original EP raiser may possibly 4bet).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Can you explain that last part?

Admittedly, the JTs hand was a speculative call pre. My judgment of the situation was that the EP raiser was likely raising too wide, and wouldn't be 4B'ing, so I thought I was getting correct implied odds to call and see a flop IP.

I was right that there was no 4B, and right that V had a big PP. If I didn't smash the flop, it would have been easy to get away from my hand. Yeah, I would have lost money by calling the 3B, but if V shows up with QQ-AA, I'm stacking him.

Could I just fold pre? Sure, and probably should have. I would have been upset to see I would have made top 2, then happy if I saw V flopped top set.

I suppose some of my thinking about 1/3 is that there are so many players opening too wide, from every position, and so little 4B'ing, that cold-calling a raise or 3B becomes forgivable in some situations that might otherwise seem like 4B or fold spots.

I haven't posted any hands from my last session, because there weren't any worth posting. But it was one of those that reinforces how much bad play there is at low stakes.

Even with making a bad call with KsKc when my opponent jammed on a three-flush turn (he called a 2/3 pot c-bet to turn a J-high flush), torching a few hundred dollars, I was still able to profit $1400 for the session, just by exploiting my opponents' bad habits.

Like I said in my post above, 4B'ing at 1/3 is pretty rare, and often just an all-in jam, usually with AA or KK. It creates these awkward situations for EP opens with a "normal" range, where they don't know what to do with 99-QQ or AQs, and opens up opportunities for LP players to get involved by cold-calling 3B's.

Don't know if you saw my other thread, where I cold-called with KQs, and the EP opener claimed he had TT. If I was in his position, facing a 3B from a maniac and a cold-call from a deep-stacked player on the BTN, I think that's a 4B or fold spot, but he just flat called, which I think is pretty bad. If he 4B-jammed, he'd have scooped.

These situations shouldn't arise in theory. But they come up all the time at 1/2 and 1/3, and even sometimes at 2/5, though with lower frequency. In another thread, I made some comment about playing my entire range as 3B or fold in the SB, and caught hell from guys who scoffed at a raise-or-fold strat when we can just flat call.

I suspect the awkward SPR situations which arise a lot at lower stakes are a big part of why you seem to prefer taking more tight-passive lines pre. You're exploiting low-stakes players' tendencies to become over-committed with strong starting hands that become marginal post-flop. I think cold-calling in some of these spots isn't too different.

You are applying general rules like "people open too wide and don't 4bet enough" and using it to justify a lot of stuff that has to be -EV.

Like both hands in this thread are:
I called a big bet with JTs because I thought he was wide and he had JJ.
I called a bet with J9s because I thought he was wide and he had KK.

It's not.
If you have a guy limping a lot who then opens to 3x EP and then a call and you overcall 150bb deep ... that's speculative.

This is closer to putting in everything preflop with 30% and no fold equity.

I mean ... maybe post some of those hands?
I see a lot of people at the casino who probably think they are doing this but are just putting lots of money in with ~30% and having the best hand by the river.
I saw one guy a month or so ago who was the major spot in a normally mid 1-3 game who cashed out for $2-3k ... his genius exploiting strat. was to limp/call 80%+ of hands and tilt everyone when he almost always had it.


To put it another way even if it was a 10 hour session, that'd be ~46.7bb an hour. Do you think that was normal? Maybe get it higher by cleaning up the couple of bad calls?

Need to clarify here - in hand 1, I thought the EP raiser was too wide, and wouldn't 4B. He didn't 4B. I'm guessing whatever he folded, it didn't beat top pair, since he folded to MP's flop c-bet on the JT5 board. So, it seems like he may have been opening too wide, if he can't continue there, getting a good price.

It was the MP 3B'er who had JJ, and I was pretty sure he had a big PP when he 3B, which he did. Not breaking my arm patting myself on the back. That's a pretty easy read when the guy's been mostly folding for an hour.

Hand 2 - V opened from the BTN, with a suddenly big stack, after doubling up in hand 1. It's reasonable to think he could be opening wider than he might have been with a stack only half as large, 3B'ing from MP, but I never said I thought he'd be opening *too* wide.

KK makes up a narrow sliver of his overall raising range. On a KJ9 flop, when I have J9, he's got 12 combos of AK, 12 of KQ, but only 3 of KK, 1 of JJ, and 1 of 99, and I didn't think he'd be raising pre and only flatting my flop check-raise with 2P+ on a draw-heavy, two-tone board that smacks his range as the PFR.

There again, if he's c-betting and flat-calling my check-raise on the flop with AK/KQ to jam a safe turn card, I think my line makes sense. I'm at the top of my range when I just flat pre in the BB.

Yeah, I don't see that comparison as being very valid. It was a loose call. Not the same as jamming pre with 30% and no fold equity.

Few hands from the session were worth posting. They were all either pretty straight-forward, or will sound like I'm bragging about the adjustments I was making. Almost a week later, I don't remember all the details well enough now to post them in full.

There was one where I turned top trips with A9s and lost to a boat when the BB check-jammed a short stack with 96o on a raggedy two-tone board, like 962xx9. Nothing much I could do there when V flops top 2 and turns a boat when I have top trips with top kicker on a two-tone board. I'm just going to lose and double him up.

There was another where I got pretty out of line raising J6s pre from the HJ, got called by a sticky rec-fish on the BTN, c-bet the flop of KJXrb, barreled turn when a BDFD appeared, and got max value from KQ when I made a miracle 2P on a river 6.

There was one where a mega-fish in the BB donked into me on a flop of KJ4xx when I raised pre with 54s. I raised, he called, then donked again on the turn, which was pretty bizarre. I raised again, he folded, and I showed the bluff.

There was one where I raised from MP with AQo, got called by a short-stacked BTN, c-bet the 9-high rb flop, the turn checked through on another 9 that also brought in a BDFD. I was planning to give up when I checked turn, but decided to check-call when he air-ball bluffed the river, and won.

There was a big pot that went four-ways with one guy all-in pre. I slow-played JJ by flatting a 3B pre from the CO, bet small into a dry side-pot on a QT-high flop, got stacks in against a short-stacked AK who was also slow-playing pre on the BTN (don't ask me to explain it), and scooped both the main and the side pot on a brick run-out.

I really should have folded KK when V jammed his turned flush, when I didn't have the flush suit in my hand. I've played with V before, knew he was loose-splashy, knew he liked to chase all sorts of trashy flush draws, and knew he was tilted from an earlier pot, when he folded AA face up to his friend's bluff with a flopped OESD on a K-high board. It was a mistake to think he wouldn't chase a non-nut flush when I c-bet 2/3 pot on the flop, and figured he'd have opened pre with a suited ace. I should have over-bet the flop. We were both deep enough and the SPR was high.

I started playing around 3:30 and left around 11:30, so it was an eight hour session, making $175 (58bb) / hour. I'm averaging $96/ hour over the the last three sessions at 1/3, totaling $2900 profit in 30 hours. I have no idea if that's "normal". I've run better over longer stretches, and occasionally worse. I had to drop down to 1/3 after a 4-session downswing at 2/5, but the four months spent grinding 2/5 definitely helped to improve my game.

For sure, though, I still have leaks I need to plug. I'm pretty sure I'm still bluffing too much, and calling too wide in a lot of spots.

the math on the cold call just such a punt when its an ep opener too. like probably close to 20% of the time, even with favorable assumptions, you don't see a flop here between sb / bb / ep 4betting after putting in 17!! bb. then when you do see the flop its just a bunch of marginal decisions with weak made hands / draws because of pot odds. the times you do outflop overpairs you want to consider hero folding. its wild man.

like look. assume everyone is 4bing QQ+,AK, thats 2.6% of hands. so between sb and bb thats around 5% of the time, then ep is probably opening somewhere in the neighborhood of 12-18% of hands and he's always going to have those hands in his range. it gets worse too if he ever decides to bluff or go with jj or aq or whatever

i think using a 4 session 30 hour sample to post a winrate as evidence you are crushing the game despite fundamental errors is a problematic way to view variance / ev

like really poker is easy. you're just for whatever reason deciding to make it super complicated in all of these threads

The more expert you are postflop, the more you can get yourself into awkward dicey situations postflop... so long as the preflop price is ok. IMO, you should rarely be putting in more than 5% of your stack (let alone hugenormous 10%++) with speculative hands preflop.

But the other part I'm having trouble wrapping my head around is that you're planning on outplaying them postflop cuz of some massive skillz differential... and yet if I'm reading HH#1 correctly, it's almost as if you have questions about postflop (where there are no questions to be had in this hand).

GbutsoundslikeanawesomegamesoI'msureyou'lldofineG