Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? super tight poker: bad play or bad variance?

04-15-2015 , 01:35 AM
I busted my bankroll, so its gut check time. It's easy to blame bad variance or the bad play others, so I want to get some honest feedback.

Started with $2000 (10 buy-ins for the 1/2 game I play) at the start of March and lost the last of it today. I'm curious if I am playing poorly or just experienced a bad swing.

I play really Nitty preflop.

My raising range:

Early: JJ+ AQ+
Middle: 99+ AQ+
Late: 77+ AQ+

Call with all other pocket pairs with the intention to set mine

Only 3-bet for value JJ+ and AK, occasionally AQ or TT

Only 4-bet or call a 4-bet with AA, KK

My default Pre-flop raise amount 7.5x, which still gets called often enough in 1/2.

Post Flop:

One and done policy for C-bet if I miss or a larger card comes when I have a pocket pair. I look for two streets of value with TPTK or Over Pair, and try to get my stack in with a monster,which tends to be a little easier given the large preflop bet sizing, and 2/3 to 3/4 pot size bets on later streets. I am Usually folding to most check raise on boards with 3 to a straight or flush. I also I do not bluff. I religious stick to my ranges in religious value bet (which is a leak, though I thought I could get away with it in 1/2, maybe not).

Am a playing too tight, and in effect poorly? Are the 1/2 players exploiting my super tight play? Or is it just bad variance?
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 02:05 AM
You cant really get a good answer for your question based on the info you have given.

My guess is you are a small winner in the game and have had some bad variance.

Try posting some actual hands instead
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 02:22 AM
Pretty sure no one is actually consciously exploiting you in 1/2, and that you are probably just not making optimal decisions.
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 02:24 AM
I'm guessing you haven't yet browsed through and studied in any depth the plethora of threads on 2p2 that can help your poker game.

You want feedback but it appears as though you haven't even studied for the exam. You've just skimmed material and read others people notes.

My suggestion is start from the beginning to end with regard to pursuing your next study material be it a book or a thread. Don't jump threads or concepts or chapters but be humble and start from page one. Back to basics and you'll be good.
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kidd
Am a playing too tight, and in effect poorly? Are the 1/2 players exploiting my super tight play? Or is it just bad variance?
Playing too tight at 1/2 will cut into your profits but should be profitable and low variance. If you have lost that much that fast it is more likely there is something wrong with your game then variance.

There really isn't enough in your notes to point to any one thing, and often it isn't a single thing but rather numerous small leaks. There are two things your post implies that are off though. The comments about post flop implies your trying to get all in with any two pair+, which would be too aggressive. It also implies your c-betting 100% of hands you raise, which is a big leak.
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 08:59 AM
post a hand history where you lost a stack and are not sure about optimal line
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 09:35 AM
7.5x raises pre-flop are a tad too big, IMO. Try raising to 5-6x instead, unless the table is crazy. Your LP raising range seems a bit too tight. There is no reason not to raise 89s in LP, provided that you have a good table image.
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 10:11 AM
I agree w the above comments. Most people at 1/2 don't care what you're doing. However, are you playing with the same people consistently or casino?
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 10:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker
Pretty sure no one is actually consciously exploiting you in 1/2, and that you are probably just not making optimal decisions.
i am generally of this opinion. in this case, i wonder if a few other players notice your massive pre-flop raises, see a few of your showdowns, and correctly assume you are only playing mid-to-high PPs and AQ+

why not a standard (3 + L)x or (4 + L)x and then adjust based on how that works at your particular table?
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 10:24 AM
My guess would be that you are following a rigid set of rules that should only be considered guidelines. The "style" that you suggested is a good starting point but it should definitely change within the first hour of the game that you are playing in. Adapting to the table is what will make you the most money in LLSNL. You might be calling off or continuing on the second street against the nitty players that only call the flop bet with TPTK or better. and you might not be calling the loose gamblers enough. There are too many variables
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 10:31 AM
Everything you posted, and are thinking, is about YOU.

Start thinking about your opponents, and how to exploit them
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 11:00 AM
You've outlined what I would consider to be an ok foundation for playing against a very specific table type. This style would work well in a 250+bb deepstacked late night game where we have 2 or more drunk maniacs taking charge of the action more often than not. The safest way to make money in a game like that would be stacking one or two players over the 8 hour session.

You need to start thinking about the game in terms of exploiting what other people are doing. From the time you sit down you should be categorizing every other player and thinking about how to exploit their play. Things like c-betting a larger range against fit or fold player or increasing bet sizing on draw heavy boards to account for players who are ignoring pot odds when making decisions.

As others have said, post some hand histories to get better feedback. In your non-playing time you should look through hand histories other people have posted and think through how you would approach the situation.

Edit: Staunchly opening for 7.5x is way too exploitable. Yeah sure no one is paying attention at 1/2, but pre-flop is the betting round everyone sees the most and has the most experience with. This means, generally, they will play pre-flop best relative to the rest of their game. Start with (3 + limpers)x and change from there based on table dynamics.

Last edited by ChicagoLex; 04-15-2015 at 11:04 AM. Reason: Holy typos Batman!
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kidd
One and done policy for C-bet if I miss or a larger card comes when I have a pocket pair.
this is really V dependent. learn which Vs are stations and will call with anything and which are fit/fold. if a V is a station, i wouldnt even bother cbetting if you miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kidd
I look for two streets of value with TPTK or Over Pair
oh dear lord, no! TPTK is basically the nuts against some Vs. if yo're only getting 2 streets, you probably check on the River, which means you lose value on the street that we get the most value because the pot is at its biggest. again, you need to learn to observe your opponents. against stations, TP is basically the nuts regardless of your kicker. it all comes down to what you can figure out about them

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kidd
I am Usually folding to most check raise on boards with 3 to a straight or flush.
this is really really dependent on V, but if some OMC is c/r me, i completely agree. if some maniac is c/r me, if i have a hand, i'm going with it


Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kidd
I also I do not bluff.
never?!?! never ever?!?! how do you expect your opponents to pay you off if you only nut pedal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kidd
I religious stick to my ranges in religious value bet (which is a leak, though I thought I could get away with it in 1/2, maybe not).
ranges are guidelines, not rigid fact that need to be held

--------------------------------
final comments:

it really looks like you're in the beginning of your poker career (either in time or mentality, it doesnt really matter). it looks like you need to branch out and understand more situations. like others said, post hands you played. but also go into other threads and say:

"i would do this because X,Y, & Z"

some people may agree, some may disagree (at first it will seem like everyone disagrees), but you should start to understand different concepts and why certain things work and dont work.

gl
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 11:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kidd
Am a playing too tight, and in effect poorly? Are the 1/2 players exploiting my super tight play? Or is it just bad variance?
You've given us no relevant information except I can tell you that your pre-flop raise amount should depend on what people are willing to call and how many limpers there are.

Is there some pattern to the hands that you lose?

Are you betting rivers with the worse hand? Are you calling bets with the worse hand? Are people folding whenever you have a good hand and usually only continuing when they flop a set? Are you incorrectly trying to get three (or more) streets of value with one pair? What's going wrong?
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 03:49 PM
Do you limp in with anything besides pocket pairs? What about AJ? I notice you don't even raise AJs even on the BTN. Are you folding suited connectors and suited aces in late position?

Based on your post it definitely looks like you have c-betting leaks (you made no mention of opponent tendencies, adjustments based on number of opponents, you don't barrel the turn and you made little mention of board texture) and my guess is you probably don't value bet enough.

Another problem is a lot of opponents have a similar gameplan to yours, especially regulars. The plan for a lot of players is to try and make big hands and stack people. You will do well against the really terrible calling stations, but against typical regs you won't win much. Also, even the loose players will notice how nitty you are and how big you bet and will give you less action. You might still win if you play less garbage than they do, but your winrate could be low, especially if you're still uncomfortable with some fundamental concepts. If your winrate is low, your swings will go up.

Playing tight will help you avoid marginal situations which limit variance, but playing super tight can lower your winrate, and a lower winrate tends to increase variance.

One thing you didn't mention is how you handle tilt. And how well you focus on your opponents and pick up on their styles and tendencies.

You can definitely lose $2k at 1-2 NL even if you're a winner. It's even more likely to happen if you're only a small winner or if you are inexperienced.

Edit: I just noticed that you only buy in for $200 instead of $300. That might increase variance if it lowers your winrate. But if you are still uncomfortable buying in for $300, then it's probably fine.

Where are you playing and what's the rake? With your gameplan, game selection will be very important. You will need to play against loose, inexperienced players that will pay you off. You will do a lot worse in games with a lot of nitty regs.

Last edited by Steve00007; 04-15-2015 at 04:07 PM.
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 06:13 PM
Basically I just nut pedal in loose wild games. I tend to go later a night and on weekends.

As for the hand I busted on, I went to the casino around 9pm last night. I sat down for half an hour, did played one single hand before the hand I busted. I lost half my stack with AK when I hit tptk on the flop, and villain shoved his stack 50BB with a draw. The 1/2 table was incredible loose a lot of limping, limp calling, and cold calling raises. People were typically open raising $10-15, plus a few extra bucks for additional callers. Despite this, many hands 3 or 4 way on the flop.

Here is the particular hand.

Hero $100 (50BB) since I lost half my stack on a previous hand.

Hero raise utg+1 with QQ for $20

Gets two callers from middle position and late position

Villain in the 5 seat $100 (50BB) is an unknown, and has only been playing for 10 minutes, so not much info.

Villain on the 6 seat $200 (100BB) is also an unknown and just sat down.

Villain on the button $150 (75BB) Old guy, have not played with him before but based on my observation pretty passive, and not especially tight or loose.

427 on the flop with 2 spades.

I act first and shove my remaining $80 into a roughly $80 pot.
Villain in the 5 seat folds, Villain in the 6 seat goes all in, villain on the button calls.
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-15-2015 , 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kidd
Basically I just nut pedal in loose wild games. I tend to go later a night and on weekends.

I act first and shove my remaining $80 into a roughly $80 pot.
Villain in the 5 seat folds, Villain in the 6 seat goes all in, villain on the button calls.
Nut peddling in wild loose games is definitely profitable, but also subject to some variance. I wouldn't describe the hand you played as "nut peddling" though. QQ as an overpair is a strong hand against gambly Vs, but it's far from the nuts.

Don't ever sit with less than 100 BBs if you're playing tight and nut peddling; especially at these types of tables. These guys will pay you off when you hit hands, so you want to be deep enough to make your patience worth it.
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-16-2015 , 12:50 AM
Systems are serviceable for preflop when you are just learning, but a post flop system can never work imo, particularly one that can be laid out in one paragraph. You need to expand your understanding of the game so that you are able to make the proper adjustments vs different opponents in varying situations.
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-16-2015 , 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Kidd
Hero $100 (50BB) since I lost half my stack on a previous hand.

Hero raise utg+1 with QQ for $20

Gets two callers from middle position and late position

Villain in the 5 seat $100 (50BB) is an unknown, and has only been playing for 10 minutes, so not much info.

Villain on the 6 seat $200 (100BB) is also an unknown and just sat down.

Villain on the button $150 (75BB) Old guy, have not played with him before but based on my observation pretty passive, and not especially tight or loose.

427 on the flop with 2 spades.

I act first and shove my remaining $80 into a roughly $80 pot.
Villain in the 5 seat folds, Villain in the 6 seat goes all in, villain on the button calls.
you say you got two callers. but post-flop: 5-seat folds, 6-seat shoves, and button calls. is that not three callers?

$20 pre-flop is great if people will call it. i personally would not hesitate to get QQ aipf if i could 50BBs deep at a loose table, although maybe someone that knows shortstacking better could weigh in here

post-flop, SPR is 1, we can get called by worse (any 7, spades, any pair 88-JJ). i always put it in and hope they put me on AK. you should expect to be ahead of the field a thin majority of the time on this flop

i don't see anything wrong with this hand. give us the AK hand where you lost the other half of your stack?
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-16-2015 , 09:54 AM
Based on what you posted I m thinking bad luck. Poker is so involved though it's impossible for us to know? Did you "feel" your edge and fell like you could profit in these games? Aldo pay super close attention to villain tendencies
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-16-2015 , 11:18 AM
Im no way a poker pro, but i can single out a makor leak in your game: "you never bluff". That is very limiting, because:

1- You will never call a loose v in a board in where a lower pair might be the best

2- you will never bet certain board textures where you missed but the v might have something minor and you can blow them off their hand

3- you will never thin value a minor pair, a lower flush/straight etc

4- somebody help me here...?
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote
04-16-2015 , 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpexDome
Everything you posted, and are thinking, is about YOU.

Start thinking about your opponents, and how to exploit them
^^^^ this x100. Come up with a game plan on how to stack every opponent at your table and then base your preflop strategy.
super tight poker: bad play or bad variance? Quote

      
m