I really just want some feed back on this river because I didn't like doing anything, honestly I would have rather just picked up my money and walked out the door.

1/2 $500 buy in AC late night/ Hero stuck/ has been running heinously and everyone is well aware of the beats, have run it up just to get clipped repeatedly. lost multiple 250-500bb pots w/ better when money went in, the vultures are circling.

Hero: losing loser image, but haven't been showing down trash or getting out played, actually winning majority of pots and playing pretty decent just can't find the best hand at show down in the big ones. $335

Villain: poor laggy/stationish maweg.(E=euro) Will play ATC, doesn't care about position, 3 bets wider then the usual QQ+ AK, but is more of a caller then a raiser pre and flop. Tends to get more agro as the hand progresses to turn/river. (plays boards, loves to over bet bluff and show it, etc) switches between loose passive/loose aggressive, a pretty massive loser in the room, but can have his days for sure, also stuck, in for $1500, has about $750 in front currently.

Just some insight as to why I'm still at the table. most recently Villain was seen opening the 4 8 off from utg +2, proceeded to flat called a 3! from a 65 yr old man oop, flop came 4 4 6 he donked, 3 better raised, villain over bet stuffed it in, got snapped by 65 yr old w/ AA, turn was one of the two A's to fill guy up and win a $1k + pot. (This is standard type of play going on at the table) Nonsensical..

Hero raises AQ to $12 from Hi Jack, Villain 3 bets otb to $30, hero calls, heads up to flop

Flop (~$60) Q Q 4

hero check/calls $30

Turn (~$120) Q Q 4 6

hero checks, villain bets $35, hero check/raises to $110 villain calls after about 30 seconds

River ($340) Q Q 4 6 K

Hero?

Don't want to lose value by checking. On the other side that's an atrociously bad card as flushes, KQ, KK get there, which is basically his whole value range?

can't see check/ folding to this guy at all though especially in a three bet pot when I hold the A (even though that probably matters less w/ exact villain)

Check/calling seems bad, open Jamming seems bad, folding seems bad???

Pathetic spot here, what do you guys do?

River is terrible but once you check/raise the turn your committed. You have less then a half pot bet left and there is a decent chance villain has QX also.

I think river is a toss up between check/call and shove, depending on how likely he is to bluff with worse hands and how likely he is to call with worse queens. Given the range of hands, I think shove is probably better.

4bet pre and ship river IMO, not really many flushes (especially since we have Ac) in his range and after he calls turn he likely has a hand that will be checking back this river a large % of the time (pretty much everything except full houses)

To avoid this spot, just raise him on the flop and then you can GII with an overbet shove on the turn, and if he calls and beats you - well oh well at least you are not in a crappy spot. Let's also evaluate V's bet sizing on the turn. Do you think he would bet a Q this way, or a hand like 99+?. If you have a read on how he sizes his bets in these situations, then your river decision should be easier. Does his 3-bet range include KQ? Not likely. Flush isn't likely either. He doesn't have AcKc or AcJc...so I wouldn't worry about that. I think only hand that you could worry about is KK. Is he a station? Is he the type to ignore the fact you are telling him you have a Q on the turn and call anyway?

I don't see what worse hand is calling you on the river except for AA, maybe JJ if you is a total station. This is the problem with playing OOP. You could just fold or 4 bet pre. I prefer fold. You need this guy on your right - he will drive you nuts when you are OOP vs him. To avoid this spot fold pre, or if you thinking calling pre is ok - just raise the flop so you get more money in the pot sooner. If you think he will bluff you on the river, just jam the river and hope he calls you thin - if you think he is capable. IF you think he won't bluff the river based on his range, check the river and hope for a showdown. But again, all this could be avoid earlier in the hand. So many tough decisions can go back to earlier streets, and this is no exception.

Another idea is to bet super small on the river. Like only $10-$20, this might induce more bluffs, get more worse hands to call, and make it harder for him to make a big raise. It's a weird move, but worth experimenting with sometimes, and this seems like the kind of spot to do it. Some villains, perhaps like this guy, can't help themselves and snap over the top as if to spit on your tiny wimpy bet. if you think he is that kind of guy, there is a lot of value in this min bet.

What hands does V call with on the turn that are likely to bluff raise the river vs. just call (and when he calls it's very likely he would call a larger bet than $10-20)? And you say it's harder for him to make a big raise but you also want to induce?

I agree blocking bets to induce can be valuable, but I don't think this is the best spot because there's not really much air in his range whereas he has a ton of bluff catchers.

Turn sizing is terribad. Too small.

Easy shove on the River. If he can have flushes then he can certainly have Qx or some non-believing PP.

The fact that you seemed MUBSy on this river with trips/TK and a 1/2 psb remaiming suggests that you should have already called it a day.

a ton in here. To start folding pre is out of the question. AQ does fine against his otb 3 bet range. I don't want to 4 bet because he'll consistently make huge mistakes post flop. 4 betting assures he folds worse/calls better. I can't let this guy off the hook.

On the flop, I basically flop the nuts, you can argue donking for sure, but this guy is always continuing ip, on a paired board, heads up vs me. I think playing in flow makes the most sense here. we're only 165bb's effective, there's no issue in gii by the river, and in case he has straight trash/air like J2 or 93 I don't want him to give up thinking I have TT+ that's looking to bet/gii.

His sizing is indicative of a FD, OP, or Qx. If he's bluffing (like post oak status) he isn't betting $35, he has a hand he's continuing with 100% of the time as long as I size it right. (which with this guy means anything right around pot/shoving as you suggested forces folds from everything we want calls from)

I'm not trying to avoid crappy spots, I'm trying to maximize profit/EV/ in any given spot. Shoveling 165bb's in to avoid decisions later in the hand is just not something I can get behind personally.

Not talking ****, I just don't adjust my play to shy away from spots that are potentially profitable for the sake of simplification.

I raised just under pot, setting up a trivial ~1/2 pot bet left otr. I felt confident that this sizing keeps his entire continuing range in. I mean we could go like $25 more but still?

What sizing are you suggesting would be better here?

This isn't the spot for a weak lead.

The K was the river card, I beat Qx/AA only in his value range, he's not raising these.

If he hero's turn w/ PP's 88-JJ, he'll call all of it or non of it otr. We only have ~$165 and pot is $340 if we bet, it has to be all in.

I don't want to leave anything for the river. Between action killers, and maybe V gets cold feet.

Plus, with image, just go with it.

You have $275 left.

Bet $150 at least. $175 would be cool.

It's not mubsy as much as I don't think he hero's w/ any PP, mainly because I don't think he has them, more so then he wouldn't call off.

Like I said in a previous post when he bets $35 ott he's either just "building" a bit bigger pot w/ a FD (he just can't take a free card, not in his dna) or he's doing the classic rec guy string you along/not want to lose you w/ a hand "he thinks" is good.

With that in mind the K is just a god awful card. I feel like shoving gets called by Qx and a some what discounted AA ( again the $35 turn bet) only as far as hands I beat, but I'm never folding ever.

I just don't beat anything that calls, but jamming river is mandatory?

Also just as an aside say we we're 400bb's effective to start the hand. How much would this change your river decision/play and how much does holding the A blocker factor in to both spots for you?

how deep would you have to be to effectively turn the AQ into a bluff here? If we were deep like this game usually plays/I usually play I think the Kc goes from a disaster to a great card because you can now fold flushes yet still get hero'd by Qx. the entire thought process of villains is 100% different if deep imo?

[QUOTE=Lapidator;48102507]I don't want to leave anything for the river. Between action killers, and maybe V gets cold feet.

Plus, with image, just go with it.

You have $275 left.

Bet $150 at least. $175 would be cool.[/QUOTE

Yeah I mean that's pretty sizeable, a bit over full pot, I want to make sure he doesn't fold anything.

Like 46, 99, I realize that I don't think these types make up much of his range but still, once he calls the turn, that extra $65 is totally trivial on the river in regard to the pot where as it could force a fold on the turn.

Personally I don't see a need to go over pot on a paired board this shallow.

3b pot tho.

GII.