Need advice about moving to 2/5 from 1/3.

Pros:
- I am adequately bankrolled
- I am getting bored at 1/3 and the action is better and more interesting at 2/5
- 2/5 has a better table convo usually
- same rake as 1/3 absolute so lower relative to pot sizes

Cons:
- Im not sure Im good enough. Some 5/10 and 10/20 guys come down to 2/5 a bit and I feel outclassed. They play Vegas and talk strat. For example I feel "calibrated" to the LP 1/3 players (80% or so of the players). So I value bet thin and so on. At 2/5 I get x/raised off my thin value bets a ton and end up making missteps like this (also overfolding because at 1/3 bluffing frequencies are lower) because I keep this dogmatic approach.
- The game is MUCH more aggressive. About 60% of hands are 3bet pre. 20% 4bet. Cold 4betting is about 10% of hands.

HH: Grinder opens UTG1, I flat AKo, LAG 3bets button, 10/20 player 4bets SB, grinder folds, I backraise jam 1 BI, LAG folds, SB calls and stacks me with AA.

- I feel when I read players and classify them at 1/3 its "loose" or "weak" but here at this game I need to have much more specific classifications like what one good player told me (he plays professionally): "so and so LAG bets but doesnt consider how hes narrowing your range so he pots flop and then pots turn for value but doesnt consider only the top part of your range is left OTT".. advice like this makes me feel outclassed.

Any advice?

Also how many hours before I can safely make a statement about the change in winrate in BB/hr after the move?

Take it is steps, imo. Play 2/5 when the game looks good, especially Fri and Sat evenings. Move down whenever you start feeling outclassed or uncomfortable at the table. That will likely happen less and less often as you get more accustomed to the game, but don't tag yourself as a 2/5 player or as a 1/3 player. It's fine to be both.

One trick I've also done is start playing in the lower game and then after 30 minutes or so try to self evaluate how you are playing today, and move up if you feel like you are on your A game.

I recently stepped up to 2/5, after years grinding 1/3. Over the last few years, friends and opponents had frequently told me I should move up to 2/5, but I hesitated. I wasn't sure I was really good enough, I wasn't sure I could deal with what I thought would be bigger swings, and I told myself I was just playing for fun, not really trying to be Joe Semi-Pro.

I cashed in a couple tournaments between September and December, burnishing my bankroll, and decided to take my shot.

My first impression was that it wasn't really all that different than 1/3. The mix of players at the table seemed to fit the same profiles - nitty regs, aggro kids, bad recs, etc. I was up a full buy-in after an hour. I've pretty much been playing 2/5 exclusively since then, and mostly doing well.

There are some differences, though.

My experience has been that 2/5 plays more straight-forward, with fewer bad recs / fish trying to play every hand and making oddball plays, though there is still some of that. I wouldn't say the action is necessarily better or more interesting at 2/5, though it certainly can be in some games. I would say it's usually easier to understand what's going on, with fewer bad recs in the game.

There is a lot more 3B'ing and 4B'ing than there is at 1/3, but I view that as a pro, not a con. It better suits my game, and forces me to be more disciplined about the pots I enter, whereas at 1/3 I was stretching my range to get into more pots with the rec-fish. You can't do that at 2/5.

As for table convo - at 1/3, I would change tables if I was in a game where no one was talking or looked like they were having any fun. Just too easy to get into a different game with so many 1/3 tables going. At 2/5, there's usually less of a party atmosphere, and fewer games going, so it can be hit or miss. Instead, I usually find myself having more "real" convos with whoever is sitting next to me.

Hope that helps. Good luck taking your shot.

I like this strategy. Get a feel for how YOU feel that day. Get your body right, get your mind right, and then play your game. If you feel a little hesitant once you sit down it's OK to tighten up and only play more "standard" spots.

The biggest difference for me is there is way more aggression PF and as a result you’re playing in a lot more 3-bet pots postflop. The more comfortable I got playing in 3-bet pots, the more comfortable I felt playing 2-5.

So one question I would ask is how comfortable are you with the increase in aggression.

Sounds like people are playing way too aggressively for their own good, and a genuinely good player could take this game apart, although the swings could be high.

Learn how to make effective three-bets, and learn how to deal with three-bets and four+-bets effectively. It can be useful to invest in a good set of preflop ranges and to study them thoroughly, so that you always have a plan when someone raises you rather than simply going "Oh, ****!"

A hundred hands takes three to four hours to play, so you can have a pretty good idea of your win rate after about three thousand hours or so.

Just play 2/5. They aren't as good as you think. The winning players are beating losing players that would lose at 1/3 too. If you are winning at 1/3 and thinking enough to be asking good questions on 2+2, you are probably good enough to beat 2/5.

The difference between 1/2 and 2/5 isnt skill, its how much the players make at their jobs. There will be on average 1 pro at a 2/5 table and he almost certainly wont want to get into pots with you as much as you dont want to with him.

This might be true in some places ... but that is far from universal. There are people who just play higher because they have more money, but they often don't play as bad as the worst at 1-2.

Also, in my experience, often a 2-5 reg. who is even a little bit worse than you but has been playing mainly 2-5 for years will be much more likely to come after anyone they've not seen before even if he knows you are a winning 1-3 player ... because his bankroll will be much bigger, and/or more comfortable with bigger pots, and he will want to see how you react to spots where 99% of 1-2/1-3 players are never bluffing.
Then there will sometimes be a good 5-10+ player just hanging out for whatever reason.


It isn't the end times, yet, but it also isn't 2005 or even 2015 anymore (although maybe it still is 2005 in Texas, from some of the stories I've heard).

Also 2/5 games are very different in terms of the relative stakes they are for the cardroom/region.

2/5 where it's the biggest game in the room and town where only one or two tables run a few times a week

is much different than 2/5 at say a larger casino during a tournament series where it's one of the smallest games in the room by an order of magnitude.

And 2/5 where a straddle is almost always on and people buy in for 200-300bb is very different from one where no one straddles and buy in for 100bb.

So depends on these factors how big the game plays

Quick question;

What is the difference in structure between the 1/3 NLHE and 2/5 NLHE where you play?

If the typical 1/3 NLHE table has a pretty deep structure in terms of average stack depth, then maybe you should talk to some of the 1/3 NLHE players who would also like bigger pots about doing "one round" of straddle.

If "one round" of straddle went favorably at your 1/3 NLHE table, then you could try to convince the table to agree to putting on a mandatory $6 straddle.

This way, you get to play a soft 1/3/6 NLHE table without having to deal with some of the higher level players who seem to give you problems at the 2/5 NLHE games sometimes.

You definitely should not consider yourself a 1/3 player or a 2/5 player. Just play whatever you feel like playing.

Another thing that can help you with your boredom is to get your 1/3 NLHE table to agree to doing some kind of side bet.

72 game where someone gets a bonus from everyone at the table if that person wins with 72. Gardens style bounty side bet where someone gets a bonus from everyone at table if/when he/she wins 2+ pots in a row. You could even do a standup game where the last player standing (you need to win a pot to sit down) has to pay everyone else at the table.

The good thing about all these side bet games is that they incentive people to play more hands.

I definitely think that you would be less bored at the poker table if you were able to get your fellow players to add these side bet games into the mix.

Excellent post. This is what I've done to move up. Took a year. I don't play as much as most of you due to life circumstances, but, I played both stakes, and still, will sit at the lower game if the players/game looks juicy. $2/$5 in my room is, as a general rule, not all that much different. There are tight games, reg infested games and loose games. I prefer the higher game due to rake. A tight lower stakes game cannot be beaten based on the rake.

A couple observations, since moving up to 2/5 about three months ago...

Because of the proportionally higher rake and the resulting larger opening sizes at 1/3, I always felt compelled to maintain the max buy-in stack size. I would constantly top off, because of the frequent pre-flop all-ins, very often involving short-stacked opponents.

Like, our 1/3 games are $100 min, $500 max. I'd see a ton of people buying in for $100, and there might be three or four $200-$300 stacks at the table. When people are opening 5bb's and 3B'ing 3x, most 4B's are just jams, and sometimes 3B's are short-stack jams.

I don't feel that same sort of pressure to constantly top off at 2/5, where the min buy in is $200, I rarely see anyone sitting down with less than $300, and it's unusual to see more than two or three stacks under $500. The opens are usually 3bb's-4bb's, so there are fewer pre-flop all-ins. I don't typically top off unless my stack dips under $800.

What?? I started playing more 1/3 partially cus the terrible poker related table talk was killing me.

Also my 2 cents, i realized something a few years back. Dont lose the plot on why to play poker. Poker is supposed to be FUN. If im having a great time and breaking even, GREAT. I have a real job, thank god, cus id probably not enjoy being a poker pro as much as i enjoy poker as a hobby. Now thats not to say go lose money so you can have fun, for me personally, trying as hard as I can and trying to win is part of the fun. If you think 2/5 looks fun and youre rolled for it have fun. **** the winrates.

This. 60% 3 bet pots is just way more than reasonable. Not sure how they play postflop but if they keep the heat on you can easily just set mine and let them hang themselves. Or something weird like smooth call their 4 bets with AA/KK and let them blast off.

I've played some super tough 2/5 games with 5-6 pros in the game and nowhere near 60% of pots were 3 bet pre.

60% 3-bet pots seems incredibly high. It feels like an overcorrection from the passive nature of low stakes. It's like the movie Idiocracy where after putting water on crops turns out to be a good idea, the morons start wanting to put water on everything to fix problems.

I mean 60% is too high but OP is probably exagurrating, and almost every single 2/5 player 3 bets too rarely. At 6 max, GTO 3 bets about 8%, might be a bit lower at 9 max, but thatd probably mean 40-50% of pots would be 3 bet anyway. Someone with piosolver could probably give the exact %. How often do you see a 3 bet at your games? Once an orbit maybe? So like 11%? 60% 3b% would probab;y be a smaller error than the typical 2/5 play.

I read a few of the replies, and the looked solid, but I didn't read them all. One thing to mention is the money. You are bankrolled for 2/5, but make sure you are mentally ready for much bigger pots and losses, but hopefully wins! It is a little daunting at first -- at least it is for me when I get the chance to play 2/5 or 5/T.

I say go for it!