1/2 NLHE, 9 handed

Hero ($270) is SB with 5d6d. Straddle is on. +1, +2, CO and BTN call the straddle, hero calls getting 7.6:1, SB calls BB folds.

Flop ($26) Ad7d9d. Hero bets $20, folds to BTN (covers hero), who calls. Turn 4c. Hero bets $55, BTN raises to $125, Hero shoves, villain snaps with nuts.

BTN just got to the table about 2 hands ago, hasn't been in a hand yet. No reads obv but is a middle aged white guy for what it's worth.

Iunno, at the time I felt this was a standard jam, he could have K high flush draw, sets, two pair, who knows. But on the other hand your typical 1/2 live player doesn't raise often enough on this type of board without KdXd.

If it's standard then it's standard, I just feel like I spewed off and coulda found a hero fold. Maybe I'm just still tilted.

With your remaining stack size, it was either jam or fold for you on the turn. Villain could have had 77 99 A7 A9, KdXx, or even trying to bluff a wet board (I've been seeing a lot of this lately for whatever reason). If you are going to play suited connectors and not bomb away with them when you hit a flush or straight, don't play them. I'd have shoved also, no spew by you IMHO.

tough spot...his raise of your pot sized bet on the turn looks extremely stong...still i think i do the same thing and be ready to reload

Cooler. He had a bigger flushie... Wp

I'm assuming he started with $200?
Smallish raise size OTT but this is a tough fold without a read on V

Villain covered hero, $270 effective stacks at the beginning of the hand.

I mean It's tough to say now that I know that you got snapped off by the nuts (don't post results), but in most cases I would say that you are smoked when you get raised OTT here. Most players who will raise sets and two pairs (or hands that aren't made flushes) will do it on the flop. The flat call flop/raise turn is extremely strong and I would consider folding OTT. And again, there is now way fro me to tell whether or not this is what I would be saying if I didn't know you got it in drawing dead already. Don't post results.

Calling a straddle pre-flop with 56s is standard in a multi-way situation. The flop seems perfect for your hand but your 20:26 or ~3/4 pot bet is called from a player in position getting 20:46 or ~2.5-1 to call. Were you watching the players or the flop? What do you think he has? What do you think he thinks you have? What do you think he thinks you think he has? You've flopped a small flush in a multi-way pot and are playing the final two streets heads up but oop against an unknown. The turn card, 4c, seems unimportant but what was his response to it? Was he watching you? Were you watching your opponent watch the turn card hitting the board? You bet 55:66 or ~4/5 pot. Why? Was your bet for value, for information, to prevent him from getting a free draw to a bigger flush, to bluff bigger but still small flushes? What hand range are you putting him on? Flushes, Ax with diamond, Ax, Kx with a diamond, Qx with a diamond, Jx with a diamond, 108 with a diamond, two pair, set and less likely random pairs with a diamond. You beat most of his potential range but what do you think he thinks about your hand given your line? He raises to 125 in a 121 pot giving you 70:246 or ~3.5-1 to call. What do you think about his hand range now? What do you think he thinks about your hand range after his raise which is pot-sized and so gives you a great price? Calling leaves you oop, without the initiative so making many river cards difficult to play. Calling also leaves you with 121 left and a pot of 316 so your playing for your stack on the river. You chose to re-raise shove with 191 more into a pot of 246 ( ~3/4 pot) giving him 191:437 or ~2.2-1 to call. What hands, from in position, follow a pre-flop call, call (coordinated board), a turn raise to pot line following your action of pre-flop call, bet, bet. How many of them can you beat? Are many players bluffing the turn here considering your action? Are many players raising other than nut flushes here (810h yes-but that beats you)? Are many players raising two pair or set hands considering your action? Did you get you stubborn with a flush? Are many players folding bigger flushes in this spot? If you fold you still have nearly 100BB to find a better spot. I don't like it and not sure I could do it, but when considering the whole hand folding is certainly a reasonable play ott.

Paragraphs are your friend.

When you get in 135 bb on a 3 flush flop that was limped 6 ways, you're going to run into another flush a lot

The turn was a bet/fold, to me, when you have no read besides villain is a middle aged guy at 1/2. They don't bluff enough in spots like this.

3 betting the turn is pure AIDS, IMO.

There are certainly spots where this hand is a call but I'm leery when you saw the flop six ways and their line is call flop then raise blank turn.

Hard to watch 5 people spread across the table at the same time, but didn't notice anything noteworthy no.

I think he could have a lot of thinks. An ace, two pair, sets, good flush draws, flushes. He would probably put me on a similar range since I lead into 5 people for a PSB. If He's capable of level 3 thinking then I'd say he thinks that I think he doesn't have the flush but likely worse holdings considering I'm betting. I don't really know, I don't do much level 4 thinking in 1/2 live at the casino.

He was watching the board, I was watching him. Nothing noteworthy about his body language when the card hit. After noticing nothing I started to count my chips and noticed he checked his holecards again. I know some people check for a suit when 3 suits flop and they have an offsuit hand, but that usually happens on the flop, not on the turn (unless the third suited card hit the turn) so I didn't give it too much value for a read.

My bet is for value. I don't bet for information, information is a side effect of a bet. I bet to get value from AX, KdX, QdX, JdX, TdX, 99, 77, 97, A9, A7.



This is where I'm not sure if it's a mistake by me or a cooler situation. Against some players (my buddies at a home game for example) this is a clear jam for value AINEC. I have a wide range of draws, TPGKs and twopairs here in that game. In this game though, it's different. I was a bit confused because I have no reads on this player or know any of his tendencies. His hand range for a nit/passive is strong, but for an aggressive or semi-aggressive player he could have a wide range of draws, strong made hands that he's trying to protect, and bluffs. The problem is I don't know how he plays, he's an unknown, and I'm not sure how to react to an unknown in this particular situation.

I don't think I'm ever just calling in this spot, SPR is too low, and even if I called and donked river there's a lot of hands that would call a shove here that won't call one on the river (all his KQJT one diamond hands)

Like I said above, I know there are players here who raise with worse, I just don't know if he's one of them. I guess I don't have much experience getting into tough spots vs unknowns, I've usually had a pretty good feel on a players game before I get into spots with them. My line looks strong, but I'm also a young 20 something that apparently looks like I bluff a lot (according to some other 1/2 regs, not this villain in particular) and I've been looked up light before. Going with a generic 1/2 player, which is usually pretty bad, and my generic image of a young guy that bluffs a lot, I think there is a decent chance, in a generic sense, that he raises here with worse to 'protect' against a fourth diamond. I'm not trying to make him fold a bigger flush, I'm willing to accept the times he has a bigger flush and calls if there's a higher probability that he holds a worse hand and calls. But then again I'm still learning, always am, and perhaps without better reads I should just lay this down.

I'm thinking it's possible I gave him a bit more respect than I should have. I'd normally think your average 1/2 live casino player doesn't bluff or raise with worse in this spot enough to merit a shove, but for some reason at the time I figured there's a lot of sets, two pairs and top pair + fd's in his range that he could be doing this with. Maybe I should approach playing with unknowns as them being typical 1/2 bad-passive players until I have more hands with them to prove otherwise? If I did that here I would have laid the flush down easy. I've laid them down before in spots where the supernit that never raises all of a sudden pops me OTT and I know instantly my 8high flush isn't good. But I've also shoved in similar spots where the superaggro pops me OTT and I know my 5high flush is good way more than enough of the time to make a profitable shove or call.

I guess that leaves the question, how do you guys approach unknowns in 1/2 (or similarly staked) live? bad-passive until proven otherwise?

Thanks, this is what I think I should have been thinking, but didn't realize until thinking about the hand later on. I also figured flush vs flush was rare enough such that it wouldn't affect the EV of the situation too much, but you're saying it's going to happen a lot, something I'll keep in mind next time.

What does AIDS mean? All In Donkey Spew? Because that's certainly what it felt like, lol.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=aids

Figured it was a poker acronym.

That makes sense.

Straddle is on so we're 67.5bb deep, right? Don't think folding is good anywhere this deep, although folding pre is probably reasonable since we just aren't deep enough(and oop).

Most irritating post I've ever read. %90 of the questions you posed here are inconsequential and useless in regards to this hand. Nobody will mentally run through all that **** while they're playing a hand. This is live 1-2 no limit, you're not durrr. Calm down.

The odds of two players both flopping a flush during the same hand are roughly 205:1.

Live 1-2 players are generally bad and will raise these flops\turns with a pair+Ad, naked Ad and sets a large amount of the time.

That's all the info you need to believe your hand is good.

Only time I'm folding this hand is when I'm up against a real nit. Ul he had the nuts... reload.

Wait... Just re-read OP... Villain was a middle aged white guy. Fold. He has the nuts.

I feel like vs a middle aged unknown at 1/2 this is a bet/fold ott. He's never bluffing most guys are shipping over your turn bet w/non nut strong hands like 2 pairs, sets, weakish flushes. when he makes a smallish raise I'm putting him on better hands most of the time until proven otherwise.

Also you'd get better responses w/out giving away what villain had.

on point

The average 1/2 player is thinking about his own hand, and maybe will put you on a couple of possible hands. That's as far as there leveling goes

I'd get it in against plenty of players for that reason

But middle age guys who call flop and raise turn after we have double barrelled on that board? They are almost always value raising the turn, that's like never a bluff.

Is this a US thing? In London, I see aggro mid aged white guys a good %.

I would stack off here almost always unless against OMC. May be it is a leak.

The most irritating post ever sounds like a compliment. Interesting numbers, 205:1 for two players to both flop flushes and because it’s rare it’s something that's not forgotten particularly when you've been on the losing end a time or two or three and each time ignored the opponent’s message that he had the nuts. I agree that most players can't and don't think like that during a hand and I know I don't, but my point was more about respecting these players. I'm not much of a tv poker fan so don't really know much about durr but I've been a regular winner, I’m no pro, at low stakes nlhe for a few years and before that at lhe. But before I started winning I stereotyped these people as tourists and old white guys and lost. Having learned a little I now take my opponents as serious and reasonably smart people who don't want to just give you their money. I appreciate the advice and will "calm down." The games’ limits are getting bigger here and I'd like to tap into that and thought a little more work away from the table might be helpful. I appreciate your criticism. The most irritating post ever, funny.

grunch

You called pre (which is bad IMO) flopped the joint with 68 bbs effective and you're considering a hero fold? When you see a flop with 56s multi-way do you expect to outplay the donks at 1/2 post flop when you miss and hero fold when you hit?

With that said, you played it fine!

I think the call pre given the odds is up for debate. I've been able to extract value with suited connectors multiway in similar situations, but perhaps I'm being results oriented, who knows.

Outplaying when we miss is out of the question, but hero folds are possible. I've made some correct ones before, and friends I play with have done the same, especially against nitty old gentlemen.

Maybe a stupid live read, but the middle aged white guy in this hand didn't seem nitty, but the only reason I think that is because he was wearing basketball shorts, an orange underarmor tank top, and gym-like shoes. Seemed like a more aggressive middle-aged guy to me (which I guess isn't common looking at the replies to this post, I know there are a few at my casino) Turns out he had the nuts, so I could be wrong or results oriented.