I am at 100bbs. Been playing pretty tag. Raise PF, cb, collect my $30. Raise, get called 3 ways, miss flop, c/f--Nothing remarkable.

v1 covers. He has been winning and splashing around quite a bit. Loose. Not sure if spewy or quite good. Likely a case of a guy playing confidently while running well.

V2 ~80bbs. Spewy and loose. ~50 years old. Calls raises with poor hands. Payed off big bets on K high board with K9 in a raised pot. Big stack has been reduced to 80bb. Not stupid though--can lay a hand down. Relies a lot on "reads."

V3 ~30BBs. not really relevant in hand....

1-3 game...
1 limp, hero raises to $16 w/ QQ V1, V2 and V3 calls, limper folds

(Pot C. $64) Flop: J62
I bet $55, V1 calls, V2 calls, V3 folds

(Pot $229) Turn: 8 J62
I have exactly a PSB left. What's the best line here?

Was $16 pre getting 3 callers normally?

1 to 5 callers.
$12 was getting 2-6.

Ugh, it sucks to be OOP . Checking puts you in no-man's land, and betting small is terrible.

Since you stated that both players are loose, suggesting that either or both may be likely to call a large bet with a J or a single high diamond, I would probably just push, and hope that neither has the turned flush.

Therein lies the problem then. Make it $20.

Or higher if they'll still call.

I'm not sure that the # of players can be engineered with precision by amount raised. Often, imo, the number of callers drastically increases when someone in EP calls (like V1 in this case).

If we knew for sure that players would call $16 w/KTo+ and 22+, yet fold everything worse than AQs and tt+ for $20, do we really want to do this?

And if we could order up a precise number of callers, how many BB's do we want to put in for one caller? How many for two?

But Spike, we are where we are. Yes, next time OP should raise more but there is a legit question about what to do here. (And even if we could go back in time and make his raise $22 and get 1-2 callers, he would still have the same question on the turn.)

So...I think this is very dependent on what you have observed from the two Vs in the past. Are they the type to chase a flush, even without odds? If you have seen them chasing flushes before, then I think this is a reluctant c/f. If you have seen them not chasing flushes, then...

Huh, while it is only a PSB, going from $55 to $229 is a powerful move in the eyes of most 1-3 players. It would probably convince most Ad to fold unless it was AdJx. While V2 may call with AJ or KJ, V1 is probably only calling with hands that have you beaten. So I think you are way behind the aggregate range of hands that call the shove.

How about a bet of $90? It gets called by most Jx, Ad, and Kd. You can fold to a shove from V1 and if V2 shoves, its $80 more into $410 so you can call knowing that he probably semi-bluff shoves at least 20% of the time, especially if he plays off reads and your bet could be seen as weakness.

I really like this HH. It is a very typical spot in llsnl that I don't think is easy to play. I hope more people chime in.

We are in this spot because of a preflop mistake. The most important thing to do then is to nail down what preflop should look like. This would NOT be the same spot if preflop had been played correctly. The pot would be different. Stacks would be different, and hopefully number of opponents would be different. In short, EVERYTHING would change. You cannot rob a band and ask for advice on how to not get prison raped (DGI). You should think instead about how you shouldn't have robber the bank.

In essence, you want to set up a favorable SPR against a favorable number of opponents. Is 5 players what you want to face OOP with QQ? It's obvious they'll call pretty wide so you might as well set yourself up well. It doesn't matter if there's a guy who will call with ATC. With QQ I want to be heads up with him, not trying to flop bingo vs. the rest of the table as well.

So you think I botched it so much pf that any question after is irrelevant. That $4 extra would have likely resulted in a HU pot? Fair enough. Not sure I agree, but this is possible.

I will try this and report my results.

If I bet $90, the pot is then $319 and I have $139 behind. If Villain A shoves, and B folds, the pot will be $458 with only $139 to call--over 3.2:1

While I agree that given my reads, V1 is more likely to have me beat when he shoves, it seems that AJx or KJx would be in his range enough to call.

Can we then just slightly modify the history to where the preflop mistake is not made and discuss the hypothetical instead? How about this...

Hero ($300): Been playing pretty tag. Raise PF, cb, collect my $30. Raise, get called 3 ways, miss flop, c/f--Nothing remarkable.

V1 (covers): He has been winning and splashing around quite a bit. Loose. Not sure if spewy or quite good. Likely a case of a guy playing confidently while running well.

V2 ($240): Spewy and loose. ~50 years old. Calls raises with poor hands. Payed off big bets on K high board with K9 in a raised pot. Big stack has been reduced to 80bb. Not stupid though--can lay a hand down. Relies a lot on "reads."

1-3 game...
1 limp, hero raises to $22 w/ QQ, V1 and V2 call, limper folds

(Pot C. $69) Flop: J62
I bet $55, V1 calls, V2 calls

(Pot $234) Turn: 8 J62
I have almost exactly a PSB left. What's the best line here?

Based on OP's reads, I would not assume that either player is at tight as the above suggests.

I think this is correct. I think they would call flop bet with just about any Jack, AdXx KdJx, Maybe TT+

It might sound nitty, but I think the best play is to check the turn.

Hero made almost a pot-sized bet on the flop into 3 people. V1 called with 2 players left to act; that call is pretty strong. Probably V1 either has a J, a flush draw, or he had you beat on the flop and was slowplaying.

Then V2 overcalls. And the read is he's not stupid. So if he has a made hand, he thinks he can beat both you and V1 (so that's Jx at worst, otherwise he really can beat you); otherwise, he has a draw.

So now that the only legitimate draw hit, there is a significant chance that Hero is drawing dead, and if somehow no one has a flush, V1 could still have a set and have you drawing to 2 outs. I think this has to be a check. If V1 bets and V2 calls, obvious fold. If V1 checks and V2 bets, then I'm not sure what the right play would be. Maybe still fold? I'm really just hoping it checks through and the river bricks. If that happens I might try a small value bet on the river and hope I get looked up by Jx.

Do you mean the flop bet or a turn shove? If the latter, then it is a stove problem that probably tells you it is an easy shove.

Not any easy spot here OTT. I think I would tend to bet like $160 here OTT and call a raise all-in (unfortunately). I mean it's tough to make a flush, and I think there is definitely still value to be gained from Jx and single diamond hands given the player description.

As for discussion of the pre-flop sizing, unless specifically bad players at the table have repeatedly shown the ability to call huge pre-flop raises with garbage, then I stick to the 4x+1 per limper like 95% of the time. I honestly don't mind going to the flop 5 or 6 ways with AA or KK. I can't remember the last time one of these hands put me in a really tough spot. Then again, I play in a fairly deep game where trying to set up a specific SPR OTF would cause more problems than going to the flop multi-way would. I also know the player pool well and can usually range my opponents well enough when they raise me to be able to make quality decisions with one pair type hands.

I misread the post I responded to. I meant what I think they'd call on the flop, not the turn.

This math doesn't add up. If you start with 100BB:

Preflop- $200
Flop- $184
Turn- $129

Pot is $229.

Did you start with 150bb?

If you have $129 left then the decision is a whole lot easier.


As far as the $4 resulting in a heads up pot:
Maybe. I don't know. You were there. If $20 doesn't get you heads up or 3 ways then make it $25.

Preflop- Raise to $25. Once call.
Flop- Pot is $55. Bet $50.
Turn- Pot is $155 with $125 left.

Or,
Preflop- Raise $25. Two calls.
Flop- pot is now$77. Bet $60. Two calls.
Turn- Pot is now $257. Mindless shove now.

I think this is a good reply. I'm wondering if my sizing on the flop was good?

If the turn bricks, should I shove, bet an amount more likely to get called by hands that are behind? Maybe go for a check raise?

1-3 nlh

$300 starting

unlikely v1 has any slowplays here, why would he invite the field in behind him with a set when ppl fear the flushdraw?

on a turn blank its an easy shove for value/protection.

ok then, my comments about preflop sizing apply with even more weight then.

Shove turn for value

One problem with this plan is that you are only collecting $160 in total when the Villain holds a single diamond (since he folds on the river when he misses), but you are much more likely to be losing your remaining stack to a made flush when you call his all-in. In addition, a Jx that is calling for $160 is calling for the $230 Hero has remaining.

I think that because you only have a pot-sized bet left and there is a flush draw on board, the only reasonable turn plays are shove or check. If you bet less than all-in, you're committed to calling a raise anyway, so not shoving allows worse hands to get off cheap.

Against a call and an overcall, I honestly don't know which of those two options I'd choose on a brick turn. It would depend on my read on V1 (the player I think is most likely to have me beat). If I think V1 often makes that flop call with a hand I can beat I probably shove.