Im surprised to not see a single thread devoted to this topic. As the propensity to play live donkaments increases I would expect an important part of a responsible players game to be on the look out for card magick. Lots of basement dwellers going exploring in those juicy live actions is why I think this thread is re-important in light of recent events, even if its been covered before. Specifically the following :

1) What angle or seat relative to the dealer from which its optimal to observe something fishy going on?

2) What exactly should be observed. Hand motion, grip, speed, excessive clumsiness and misdeals, anything about the manner of shuffling ...

3) Conversely is it +EV to get an average dealer to think we are keeping an eye on them to deter them psychologically, or actually try to be as discrete as possible until certain that somethings wrong. If the latter then how to go about being vigilant quietly?

Not that I know anything about this (or the live scene in general) but Id expect anything to be done in a very subtle manner not cooler after cooler after suckout for the entire stacks but just a little bit here and there, either to bolster the house edge by artificially amping action or give certain bad players a better card run if theres a risk of them getting frustrated by their own recent badness. Like poker : rounders poker as cheating in poker : cheating in rounders

Note; Im sure there will be plenty of livedonks here that thing online poker is more easily rigged but the fact is its way more difficult (for most people anyway) to verify the fairness of a live game because there simply is no tracking software over which a game can be held accountable over thousands and millions of hands. Also less incentive for a house to cheat online given the penalty of no one ever playing there again ever and the aforementioned ease and surety with which they could be spotted.

But, any stories from said live donks about dealers theyve caught, how, and what exactly ensued after they found out, would be much appreciated

Seriously? Don't you think there's enough on the plate already, before we're also worrying about the world is out there to get us?

Get a life.

That's why I have never played in a home game. Only casino's, but I too would like to know some details.

Have you lived in a cave for the last half month. It obviously is

How

Yeah only thing you really need to worry about in most casinos is dealers taking money from the pot none of them are rigging it to induce action for the casino lol.

So you're suggesting that the casino is artificially inducing action with bad beats, so what? Bad players will last longer and more tables for rake?

What are you getting at? Mechanics have nothing to gain if they're not working with another player, so do share with me another one of your crazy theories.

I guess I shouldve mentioned the main concern is with homegames not casino, as I expect them to fear at least some people who know the tricks inside and out to eventually wander by and rat them out.

TBTH I think card magic is a fascinating part of the game, dont consider it it in any way unethical. Just like a bluff, anyone who sits down tacitly admits to the possibility they are being deceived. And just like a good spotter of bluffs, Id say its up to the player with self respect for his game to catch a good mechanic.

Obviously you play home games at your own discretion.

If you're dumb enough to be taken more than once, then you're simply dumb. What's the point of having this thread?

Several people have been caught cheating at the local casinos, and some have been at it for quite a while. I don't play home games, but I can see why you would be suspicious.

Mike Caro advises that if you are at a home game and suspect cheating, just leave because it will affect your play. Don't really know what to make of that advice, just passing it along.

Please define cheating or forward the links.

Yeah viable information.

How is cheating not unethical?

Because it involves honing a sick skill to the point where ur literally owning math wizzards at their own game

As I said they took that risk the minute they walked into ur doorstep. Unless you have a large disclaimer sign saying there is an 1/52 probability of each card in the deck being dealt to each player. Why should they make that assumption.

Quit trolling...

No, it's cheating. Seriously, this is ridiculous.

Hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahahahahahhahahahahah hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahah ahhahahahahahhahahah

He's trolling lmao, why would someone say its a sick skill to own math wizards hahahahahahahahahhahahahahah

I'm not sure if this is a level or not. Going south/slow rolling are unethical bottom dealing or however someone would be rigging the deck is straight up cheating. I'm not going to go into a further explanation of why this is cheating because I think it should be obvious, but I will say that if you're trying to do this then you should reconsider.

The link in this COTW from the micro forum is a video showing someone who really can manipulate the deck.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...-games-776285/

I'll note that after he made this video, he was offered a contract to host a series of specials on Singapore TV on card manipulation. He's performed magic throughout Asia.

The quick answer is that if someone is this good, you don't have a prayer of catching him in the act during the normal course of events in a poker evening. The best advice is that if something seems off in a game, make up any excuse and leave. Don't be paranoid, but if a guy seems to have terrific hand reading skills only when he's the dealer in a 2 deck game, there may be a reason for it.

i need to work on my magic skills along with my nunchuk skills

yea that has to be one of the best lines ive read here in a long time. im changing that to be under my name.

wtf i dont know how to change it. oh well.

But until you have bowhunting skills....

Wow, Great video, very educational, I knew it was possible, it just amazes me how good that guy was, I couldn't even see when he was bottom dealing, I only could hear it lmao, the double peek blew my mind smh.

That video is nuts, very hard to spot. The hand is faster than the eye.

you will never catch the dealer... or slay a liger

the 1 seat and the 3 seat if the dealer is flashing the turn/river, and burns to the 2 seat.
the 2 seat knows if he will hit his draw or not, ( can u imagine)
the dealer flashes the cards when he is using his left hand to scoop the chips into a pile with the deck in it.
you will notice his thumb on the corner of the deck, and the deck being held at a 45% angle, not dead level like it should be.
the chances of you running into this cheating scheme is about a million:1, though, but it does exist.