So Friday night I'm at Foxwoods at probably one of the worst 1/2NL tables ever.

No chatting, no drinking, smallish-stacks. I'm trying to table change, but its not possible just yet. I looked at some 2/5 tables, but nothing really looked much better then the 1/2 tables (many full tables and a long list).

Meanwhile, Hero has been doing well, and has the biggest stack at the table. Hero is also drinking a bourbon (neat), and has commented a couple times that, "folks, it's Friday night... please have a drink with me." Which some of the table laughs, and some take it as a personal insult. Still, nobody else joins in.

The second biggest stack is sitting two to my left, and is a nitty, scared-money Nit. Never raising pre. I don't think I've seen him play to the turn yet. However, he does have a stack, which I didn't see the hand where he built it. I presume he got about $150 from someone with AA. (But I've been looking for a new table, so I've been walking away from the table every 30 min or so.) It would be fair to say he's in lock-down mode with his "big" stack.

The rest of the table is playing tight-passive, and each player has about $150 or (much) less. They're not putting any money in the pot without a strong hand, and they're not folding if they have a piece (and not calling anything otherwise). Hero has been caught bluffing a few times, so Hero has started to slow way down and just play big hands for bloated pots, and overbet on all streets (until table change is possible).

Hero has been looking for opportunities to get the Nit to put some money into the pot. Here's the only interesting one... I'd like to see what LLSNL has to say about it.

Stacks:

Hero, $465

Nit, $430

Couple limpers to Hero, who makes it $11 from CO with J9. Fold, then Nit calls from the SB, BB calls, limpers call. Smallish open trying to get multiple callers in a bloated pot (so villains can make bigger mistakes). I have to justify J9s too; Hero has been card dead for a couple orbits and has uncharacteristically not played a hand in a while. So J9s was actually a welcome sight at the time.

Pot, $42 after rake.

Flop 3 8 T

Nit drops a $100 chip out in front of him. Dealer looks to next player and say, "$100 to you". Everyone folds to me.

I confirm with the dealer, "$100, right". Dealer says, "yup.".

I slide out $200, and say nothing, and look down at the table in front of me.

After a few seconds, Nit grabs a handful of chips, and holds them over his $100 bet, but before he bets, he pauses in mid air for like 10 seconds. He then goes back to his stack and very clumsily, having to recover lost chips, slides in his stack.

The dealer is looking at me, clearly wondering if I am going to complain about a string bet. But I give him a shrug and say, "call". Before running the cards, dealer says, "I thought you were going to call a string bet on him." I say, "no, I'm happy he's putting chips in", and laugh as I flip over my cards.

Nit flips over AK.

Thoughts?

Nice playing. The flop bet is utterly bizarre and I think there's some factor involved in your image that must explain it. Both of you played great after that.

Whatever this guy is, "nit" is not the word.

So let me make sure I'm reading this correctly. Villain is a "scared money nit" who only "puts money in the pot when he has a hand" and you somehow manage to but 200 bbs in on the flop against him with J high.

First step would probably be to rethink what your definition of scared money nit is. Second step would be to reevaluate how you respond to a 100$ overbet from a "scared money nit" when you have J high in a multi way pot.

I'm pretty sure that you have zero fold equity on the flop when you (min.) raise the Nit after he donks 2x pot???

He is shoving here almost 100% of the time.

All that you have is an 8-out draw and your sitting with 200bb's effective. Not folding the flop is a pretty big mistake IMO

He has 14 clean outs twice, actually a small favorite to win the hand.
And backdoor spades.

Wayyyyyy too results oriented. Before the cards are flipped over we have no reason to believe villain is spazzing with AK here, so you definitely can't count the J and 9 outs lol

Shoving flop is better than min raising, what part of this hand made you think he's a nit?

Well, we do know that whatever he has he is spazzing. That flop bet is quintessential spaz.

It's actually way more of a Villain-underestimation to suppose that he would do this with a monster made hand. That would be horrible play.

This is certainly spaz. Maybe he hit male menopause or something.

Why did I think he was a Nit?

1) The Nit folded red AQ from the button about an hour before this hand. I only saw because the cards bounced off the shuffle machine as he was folding. The Nit is seated in the 10 seat, and was tossing the cards but they caught the edge of the machine and his hand turn up just enough to see it -- I just happened to be looking right at it at the right time. This was not a 3B pot. I even asked him about it, "you didn't just fold AQ did you?", with a laugh, and the look on his face said everything.

2) As I said, I cannot remember a hand where he saw the turn.

3) As I said, I cannot remember a hand where he raised preflop.

4) He pretty much didn't play any hands, except from the blinds for quite a while. And he would just fold the flop.

I don't know this for a fact, but I believe he was waiting for a ride.

I would love to hear your reasons why shoving is better then min-raising here.

Some people are just allergic to AQ, having heard what a trouble hand it is in the tournament context.

Someone's sarcasm radar is off today. Couldn't tell by the backdoor spades comment?

I'd want to maximize my fold equity

According to the OP, there is 0 reason to believe the villain has anything less than JJ here. As for overbetting with a made-hand: Yes, it is a bad move, but these type of players do it ALL the time to "protect against the draws". And I wouldn't even consider an overpair on this board a monster. A nit certainly wouldn't view it that way either.

Because you have maybe 5% fold equity as opposed to 0%.

If your original post was sarcastic than my apologies for not picking up on it

I think the spazzy play started PF. Although overlimping in the CO is fine with J9s, I don't understand bloating the pot against tight-passive players who are sticky post-flop and whose limp-calling ranges are almost certainly stronger than J9s.

Although you are hoping that bloating the pot will lead to your opponents making bigger mistakes post-flop, a hand like J9s itself has the potential to lead one to make one or more expensive mistakes after the flop.

Well... let me put some more of my thoughts out there. Flame away if you like. I have no illusions that my play was anything other then spew. I consider this confessional, if nothing else.

I was pretty much playing any two cards when it came to Villain sitting in the blinds once I realized he was essentially folding everything but at least seeing the flop from the blinds. My standard raise from late position that night was $17, and getting 2 callers (but Villain was folding most of the time to this raise). Seems like a great table, I know, but I was having to fold every other hand, so pretty much just putting $5 into the casino rake without much to show for it. So I started dropping my open raise from HJ/CO to keep Villain in the hand, even if it meant going 5-6 ways.

When Villain donks out $100 into $42, my first thought was, [AK, JJ], since I see this, "go away" bet so often. Very likely I'm focusing on the wrong thing, but every time I see these, "go away" bets, it seems to be either AK or JJ. And yes, unless I see otherwise, when bad villains overbet into a pot, I consider it a "go away" bet. There are a few people who I know do this also with OESFD -- but not this guy. I'm more then happy to put a good player on a very strong hand with this move, but not the bad fish.

While quickly thinking it over, I "decided" that the widest his range could be here would be [KK+, JJ, AK]. I was pretty sure JJ was not in his range -- especially since I had a J in my hand. I was also pretty sure he wouldn't do this with KK either -- no he would have made a more reasonable value bet instead of spazzing out like this.

So in my fishy little brain I "decided" his hand is either AA or AK. I further "decided" that even he would have raised preflop with AA, so while I couldn't completely eliminate it from his range, I decided that not more then 50% of his range was AA.

Good news: Nit just put in $111 into the pot and I actually have a hand! Ok, I have a crappy draw... but still, I HAZ OUTS!

To be perfectly honest, when I raised him, I was like 99% certain he was going to fold. He was just that nitty to open muck AA here and complain how he never wins with AA... And when he paused in mid call, I was thinking... wow, he actually is going to fold! But when he went back and shoved, I knew I was screwed...

The only "good" news was with $661 in the pot, and $219 to call, I was getting 3:1, which is plenty to call for an 8 out draw to the straight (2.2:1 is actually all that is necessary).

When he turned over AK, , I was astonished that I had gotten so "lucky" to have the absolute bottom of his range, and thus picked up 6 more outs.

But I was rightly punished for my fishy behavior as the turn and river bricked out and his A-high was good.

He stayed for another hour or so, but then left. IIRC, he didn't play another hand, folding his blinds too.

I ended up burning my 2nd buyin about 2 hours later when I ran AK into TTT on a AT3 rainbow board.

I respect this theory, but I've been trying to break the habit of limping. Its one thing to limp a PP to set-mine. But otherwise, I'm trying to come in for a raise, or fold.

I disagree that middle suited connectors play well against 4-6 limpers. I think we 1) have each other's outs, and 2) are dodging way to many cards that give us a strong second best hand for RIO.

Even a nit is usually not folding after 2x overbetting the flop. But you had a read and went with it, so I can't fault you for that. I fold flop, but if you want to play, I think you can flat and he slows down with almost all of his range on the turn.

Preflop I like raising too when you're on the button. To quote the thinking poker podcast, getting Qxss and Kxss to fold is an "equity bonanza" for your hand.

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i think you should prob fold when a nit overbets 2x pot

regardless

you asked why jamming is better than minraise.. i think this is a classic example. you don't want to allow villain to rebluff you when you have jack high

Preflop is fine. http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/show...fpart=all&vc=1

Nice!

(And I like thinking about Shania. )

Please do not put results in the OP. It is a nice detailed post, easy to read but then you tell us what villain has!

I have seen these type of players spazz by playing a bigger pair like this. In this hand that would be pretty bad news if he has QQ.

I don't think that Shania is a very important concept at 1/2 where most villains are just playing their cards. That said, I still think raising J9s is fine. I'd size it a little bigger, however; while I understand the appeal of a multiway pot with a good speculative hand, at a fit-or-fold table it'll be more profitable to just isolate and print money on your c-bets. If you're interested in going multiway then I'd rather just overlimp to keep the SPR favorable for your hand. I don't much care for the in-between "pot sweetener" raise.

I would fold to his $100 on the flop. As others have said, I think his range is mostly TP, sets, and overpairs, with maybe a few combo draws sprinkled in. I doubt you have much FE. And I agree that if you're going to continue, you might as well just shove to maximize any FE you may have.

theres no way u can minraise this flop....because it forces you to call off ur stack with J high.
villain having AK is exactly why, if ur going to proceed after this flop, u need to ship it urself.

I don't know why "nits" have the magical ability to tilt a certain breed of thinking player and get certain thinking players to spazz out.

It's like the nit is an affront and an abomination that certain thinking players somehow convince themselves that it is their duty to bust said nit.

I just finished a 12 hour grind and my brain is a bit mushy. But skimming through this thread has made my mushy brain more mushy.

This is just spewtarded the whole way through.

Min raising a nit who bet $100 on this board is probably one of the worst plays I've seen posted on here in a while. Based on your read and description, the nit's range is TT+, AKcc, AQcc, AJcc. I would have never put any other hand in this V's range based on your description. The fact V actually turned over AKdd means you are way off in your reads. But hey, it happens, poker is a game of incomplete information, so lets focus on what we thought we knew...

And what we thought we knew is that this player is nitty Mcnitty.

Another way to think about this spot is to think about the hands we SHOULD have when we min raise this nit.

The hands we should have are sets, J9cc, 97cc, AKcc, AQcc. That's it. Those are the only hands that should be min-raising here and we could argue whether or not even these hands should be min-raising or in fact shoving...

This is FPS laced with some wierd form of angry anti-nit tilt. Its like you are mad that the table and the nit isn't playing the way you want them to play and thus you spazz out trying to facilitate the action that you want...

Basically, these are the sort of spewtarded eruptions that can destroy an entire sessions worth of good play and profit.

FWIW, we've all done it. The important thing is you recognize and identify the reasons why you did it and implement a list of corrective actions to prevent you from doing it in future sessions against other nitty Mcnittys that get under your skin with their nittyness...