True, but to me the more important part of that is that when we add the element of being chk raise bluffed into the mix, the game has gotten A LOT harder in my opinion where like 1 to 1.5 yrs ago a flop CR was absolutely either set, big flush draw or slowplayed overpair pre.

Those days are over. Good for players in a sense who hand read very well but terrible for players who are left going WTF? when chk raised.

I raise TT, 99, 88, and KQs and all premium hands for value on the button when it's limped to me at the beginning of a session. I also raise alot of suited connectors in this spot. If you isolate great. If a whole bunch of people call, thats great too. Hit your hand and they will pay you off. If you dont hit your hand, give up if alot of people call.

If they all keep calling out of position, I start to increase my bet size. I know this is sort of spewy, but after a while you start to crush the spirits of people at the table that think they can limp in with 40% of hands out of position. If nobody is ever 3 betting with anything less than JJ+ why not play all of the big pots with the best position and likely the best starting hand? You would be surprised at how some live fish respond to relentless agression.

After playing like this for 30-40 mins, take the speculative hands and suited connectors out of your raising range. Start playing like a rock preflop. And value town the table to death. They will never noticed that you switched gears.

my tip...play small ball with strong rock tag and go with your gut

if you think you have the best hand heads up...rock heavy bets.

Yea this is my current transition from last night.

Unfortunately with the extremely slow pace of live play and the long runs of variance these guys can live high on the hog for years before the variance turns and cleans them out in a couple of weeks.

Humm, its not anything new in terms of "good games". I agree in the "tends to play tighter than anywhere else West of the Mississippi" LV games, but in a typical PHX or LA or SF game, the ol CR bluff is too common from semi thinking LAGs especially the ones that cut their teeth on MTTs.

Slow down player, LLSNL the players are not aggressive. They don't want to play big pots. Just assume everyone is a calling station. A calling station is just going to call. He will not raise his set on a wet board, or 3bet his AA on a dry flop. They just call, advance thinking does exist.

Its call reads, I pretty much assume everyone at the table is an idiot. Until proven otherwise. 99% of the time I'm rite. Like I said I have played all over cali. I have only seen a couple of real solid players.

Stick with the basic fundamentals. By using effective stacks and stack to game-plan theory.

99% of your opponents will not be using fundamentals. So double and triple barreling with Over-pairs or TPTK is a losing play. When your opponents "slow play". Well they actually don't slow play, they just don't have a raise button.



When you flop monsters that is the time to bet all 3 streets. Bet for value draw for cheap. Last but not least, your stack off range: you need to be aware of board texture and make sure your stack off range is higher then your opponents.

lol, this seems very very familiar. Were you playing at my table? Thats where I get in trouble.

AA on
flop 974... they check, I bet, they call
turn 2 ... they check, I bet, they call
river K ... they check, I bet, they call and quickly flip over 97o and my face falls flat.

Betting three streets postflop with one pair is usually not a great idea, unless playing against the most calling of calling stations. Exactly what worse hand that is calling the flop/turn did you think would pay you off on the river once the K shows up? Turn the board ain't drawy; I woulda typically checked the turn and then bluff catched / value bet the river. (depending all on stack sizes of course)

I was used to calling stations that called that river with A9o

Last summer when I was visiting vegas I was saying that the 1/2 and 2/5 games had gotten a lot tougher (but were still beatable).

I got back into vegas in early March this year, and the games are noticeably different now than they were last summer.

Right now, the live low stakes no limit games in Vegas are a weird hybrid of traditional loose passive live play and (so far) bad internet style play. You'll be sitting at a table and:

1. two local regs will be raising to $20 with the top 3% hands and limping most everything else they play

2. 3 players will be playing as if they were in a tournament

3. 3 players will be online NL $25 players or so who read but didn't understand the thread about being a supreme donkey crusher, and who raise a 30 or 40% range and whose idea of good post flop play is just to fire three barrels every hand to see if they can blow you off your hand, and who will call in position with ATC, confident that they will outplay you post flop; and

4. maybe 1 other player who actually has a clue and plays a solid lag or tag style.

These games are still beatable, but they are not the traditionally loose passive live games that I played in here from 2006 to 2009, and (based on the threads in this forum) still exist outside of vegas.

The games in vegas play so differently now from the stuff I see in threads in this forum that I think this forum should have a rule that when you post a hand here for review it should specify whether it was played on the Vegas strip or elsewhere in the country.

So... switch gears before you hit any of those good hands?

I've seen people call that down with a 4.

Well Im have to rewrite the book for my casino that I play at. Rake+BBJP $6 if you see a flop $2 if you dont with 1-1-2 blinds and $4 limps. So things play differently with this redonkulous rake.

1st day I was there I iso-raised a limper on the button with a "better than she has" hand for $16. Flop came she checked, I bet $20 she folded. The total pot $55 of blinds and limper money, $35 of mine which sounds reasonable. But the house took $6 so I risked $35 to win $14. WTF? Throw that strategy out the window when the cut is effectively 30% post flop in small pots.

Question:
I see a lot of people posting about raising very high amounts preflop in these games. Like for my casino the better players talk about raising $20 preflop. I really dont see the reason why with so many callers how can't you be pot committed post flop.

Remember my game is $200 NL 1-1-2 blinds $4 limps
For example I raise UTG AA $20. I get 3 callers. All 3 callers are effectively getting 13:1 to play. 10:1 is break even for a set if you see all 5 cards. 13:1 is marginal profit. Pot is $80, you have $180 left. How cant you not be pot committed if you get shoved on? And if you dont and get slowplayed, then how cant you be pot committed on the turn.

I see it differently. I raise $5. I dont get 3 bet without AA/KK. So Its like I limped without some soul reader 3 betting everyone out of the pot with KJo in position and I get to see a flop. I can get away from the hand and if I hit big I get paid anyways.

This being my 100th post (cue the 2+2 old-timers snickering, "LOL @ celebrating 100 posts"), thought I'd kickstart a discussion on a specific topic for the benefit of online players moving to the B&M world.

Having never played a hand of online poker before, I'm not the best person to draw comparisons. But, if nothing else, I have plenty of experience going up against people who play ATC. There's a specific question that I suspect some on this forum may be asking: "How do I know when I'm aboard the Donk Express to Valuetown?" Well, it's player- and table-dependent, of course. But here are 3 betting patterns by live players that should be a big flashing sign. Don't overthink them, don't talk yourself into shoving because of the 'fold equity' ... just get off the train. Failure to disembark may carry severe consequences.

(1) You're OOP with AA (or AK that hits a K on the flop ... or whatever). Villain calls your PF raise, calls your flop CB, and raises your turn bet ... your AA is beat more often than not, and probably 85% of the time if the turn completed a draw. (No, he's almost never floating the flop to play position OTT. Honestly, he's not. The only 'float' most live players are familiar with includes root beer.)

(2) You're IP with AA. Villain limp-calls your PF raise, check-calls your flop bet, and check-raises your turn bet ... your AA is beat 90% of the time no matter what the board texture. (No, he's almost never semi-bluffing here. Honestly, he's not. The only 'semi' most live players are familiar with is sitting out in the parking lot.)

(3) You're IP with, well, basically anything, in a limped or otherwise small PF pot (let's say $10-15 or less in a 1/2 game). You hit top pair (or bottom two, or something similar) on the flop. Villain check-calls your flop and turn bets. The river (or sometimes the turn) either completes a draw or pairs the board, and Villain donks into you on the river for a decent-size bet BUT not his entire stack ... this is a monster 95%+ of the time. (No, he's not post-oak bluffing. The only 'oak' most live players ... you get the idea.) Note the "less than his stack" qualifier: I've seen dozens of live LAGtards shove here as a bluff, but I've never once seen a $60 river donk into aggression, into a $100 pot, from a $150 stack, that wasn't trips at least, and usually the stone nuts.

Any others anyone wants to chime in with?

I love when a donk, c/c flop with an obvious flush draw I'm holding AA no blockers. Flush completes OTT he leads. I tank fold even though I already knew I was going to fold. Don't want to get run over easy by someone noticing that line.

(1) and (2) are well known as the Beluga Theorem on these forums.

But the common theme here is, anytime a normally passive player suddenly gets aggressive, it's a big hand. Some of my tough spots in these games are when I know my opponent has a big hand, but I have a big hand too, like trips or better, and I think I might beat some hands my opponent could show up with.

I'll add one of my own since I'm posting here: small bets don't necessarily mean weakness. A lot of people will bet small with a monster because they think it's more important to make sure you don't fold than it is to win the maximum out of their hand. Raising these kinds of bets is falling right into the trap.

This is true, but I'd say it's closer to 75%ish that you're beat. Sometimes, if you've put like half of your stack in or more, you should call because that 25% of the time you're good is good enough to call.

A common spot where it's a terrible mistake to make hero folds with top pairs or overpairs is when you're raised on the flop, or villain check calls flop and shoves turn. Unless really deep, top pair and overpairs are usually good against this line in my experience.

Why? They don't know you have AA. The longer you take to fold the more likely they will think you're mucking an overpair. You're actually encouraging them to run you over more once they see you take folding so seriously. If you turbo-muck they will just think you're a c-bet gambolholic bluff monkey. You also speed up the game and others might follow your example.

Depending on the particular villain, board, stacks, ect, against that line heads up, overpair is good more often than not. The important thing to think of is they don't put YOU on a flush, that's for sure. So they could be betting top pair, middle pair + NFD.

You missed a keyword, "Obvious flush draw" so basically I was already talking about board texture.

I don't really understand this ? Jesus just fold if u know ur going to fold, Bunch of donks that tank fold. Just waste time. Live Poker is already slow enough

I basically agree with these 3 as a general rule.

Here is chip bleeding at its finest, villain donk betting less than 1/4 pot flop turn river with top pair/ok kick or slight over pair in mw pot and we get at least 3 callers every time by the river and we have a decent hand worth calling down or drawing getting great odds. Usually villain is nittier old dude, but they do it so well say on Txx with QT or T9, and sometimes JJ

Donking heads up/3 way pots when the flush comes on the turn is a pretty good play against the semi-thinking 1/2 players. If i've never played with people before, and i notice they talk a big game (spouting out poker lingo all over the show, shades, hoodie, general demeanour) this will work so often, and they will nearly insta muck, feeling very proud for reading the table donk so well. ****in lol at how easily this line gets folds in 1/2. Works better heads up when you cold call a players pfr oop obv

Always taking time to think about your decisions, even when you "know" what you're going to do is a good thing. Also, even fish can see timing tells, though they might not interpret them well.