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Some questions on 1/2 live play Some questions on 1/2 live play

06-26-2016 , 08:00 PM
Table has been fairly LAG. For the last two orbits there have been a lot of very large pots (~over hundred)

Hero: UTG with QQ (340)
V1: ~600 newer player at the table and hit a quick double up
V2: ~300 newer player who has been aggressive
V3: ~220 TAG player. Has had QQ+ three times and made it 35-40 each of those times.

Hero makes it 12 UTG. V1 UTG+1 makes it 35. V2 in MP calls and V3 button calls. Hero raises to 100. UTG+1 goes all in fairly quickly. V2 tanks for 2 minutes and folds. V3 tanks for 2 minutes and folds.

Hero tanks and V2 and V3 start discussing their hands loudly in general enough terms that I know at least 1 King is dead.

Q1: is the 100 4 bet too large? Are we effectively committing ourselves with this bet?
Q2: 80/20 vs kings or aces. If v2 has non aces or kings 1/10 times are we close?
Q3: What is V1 range?

Will post spoilers later on for everyones hands.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-26-2016 , 08:07 PM
I would have 4-bet more, around $150. Either way I thin it's best to fold to the shove.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-26-2016 , 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brojaysimpson
I would have 4-bet more, around $150. Either way I thin it's best to fold to the shove.
Why bet 150 if you're only going to fold to a shove? This is interesting as I thought if I bet 70 I could have had an easier time folding. If we bet 150 we have to call 200 to win about 600. Doesn't that make a call easier?
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-26-2016 , 08:46 PM
Likely 4-betting bigger. Pot is already $140 with your call, you only raised $65 more (less than half pot), you are in the worst position possible, and very few live 1/2 Vs have a 3-bet/fold range. OTOH, very few live 1/2 V's ever 5-bet without AA/KK, so I fold. If I had a read that V would GII with AK (rare live) I'd call.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-26-2016 , 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Likely 4-betting bigger. Pot is already $140 with your call, you only raised $65 more (less than half pot), you are in the worst position possible, and very few live 1/2 Vs have a 3-bet/fold range. OTOH, very few live 1/2 V's ever 5-bet without AA/KK, so I fold. If I had a read that V would GII with AK (rare live) I'd call.
Agree that most live 1/2 players don't 5bet pre without AA or KK. Same question as above though. If we make a bigger bet is it really +EV to bet bigger and fold? Do we just flat? I figured 4 betting was needed to see where we are.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-26-2016 , 08:54 PM
Forget "seeing where you are." You'll get that as a bonus. 4-bet for value against his whole 3-betting range, and if he 5-bets, he's at the top of that range and we can fold if there is insufficient dead money.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-26-2016 , 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick
Forget "seeing where you are." You'll get that as a bonus. 4-bet for value against his whole 3-betting range, and if he 5-bets, he's at the top of that range and we can fold if there is insufficient dead money.
Got it. So how do you proceed on blank boards after he flats? He has top of his range plus QQ and AK?
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-26-2016 , 09:05 PM
No, he very rarely has AA if he flats (though sometimes), and somewhat rarely KK. Whatever his 3-bet range is, he has all of it, minus the very top when he flats. Depending on player profile, this can be as tight as QQ+, and as loose as TT+, AK, AQs. Some are even looser, but my default is usually around JJ+, AK.

As for how to play it post OOP, I basically GII on any non ace flop (and sometimes not a K-high, depending on reads), assuming that he flats and V2 and V3 fold.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-26-2016 , 09:57 PM
I go with flatting the flop here. An immediate 3bet from UTG+1 is rare at 1-2. You're getting an amazing price to flat, at the very least to set mine, and reevaluate on the flop. If we don't hit a set most likely going to have to check/fold this hand. That might seem passive with a monster hand like QQ but if we hit a set we are likely going to stack someone and if we 4bet the flop and get jammed on (which is what happened), we are in no man's land and forced to fold.

If we have a deeper read on the villain or more history we might play this differently. But going in cold, this hand is best played cautiously.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-26-2016 , 10:45 PM
I think you have to plan ahead of your next move

When you 4bet, the size of the pot is about the size of your remaining stack

So some questions to consider are:
-Are you shoving the flop if Villain calls?
-And if Villain shoves on top of your 4bet are you calling?
-Did we 4bet because we want to fold-out the bottom of Villain's 3bet range?

So it really comes down what our plan is based on the reads of our opponents. Otherwise, you'd be burning money from 4bet-folding, or you end up not realizing the equity of your hand.

Last edited by Jet$on; 06-26-2016 at 10:51 PM.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-27-2016 , 12:35 AM
I'm only ever 4betting if I intend to felt in this spot. Otherwise the price is right to call and play poker. You could end up stacking multiple opponents if you spike a Q.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-27-2016 , 03:53 PM
V1 had aces
V2 had sevens
V3 had kings
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-27-2016 , 06:05 PM
The problem is that if you're going to 4-bet it, you're going to have to bet so much that you're committed on all but the worst flops. I think flatting pre-flop is a better play here. You're in the worst position with a hand that's very difficult to improve on post-flop. This hand plays best heads-up and in position and this is the opposite, so why commit more money to the pot when you're going to lose it more often than not.

I would check/decide every flop unless it was coordinated and contained a Q, in which case I'd lead/gii. I'd be perfectly fine check-folding to heavy action otherwise.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-27-2016 , 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the munkey
The problem is that if you're going to 4-bet it, you're going to have to bet so much that you're committed on all but the worst flops. I think flatting pre-flop is a better play here. You're in the worst position with a hand that's very difficult to improve on post-flop. This hand plays best heads-up and in position and this is the opposite, so why commit more money to the pot when you're going to lose it more often than not.

I would check/decide every flop unless it was coordinated and contained a Q, in which case I'd lead/gii. I'd be perfectly fine check-folding to heavy action otherwise.
Looking back I agree. It was tough to bring queens to a flop four ways though. Was reaching a little in retrospect and should have just flatted. Flop came QTT. Turn 2. River A. Roller coaster of a game we play. I would be shocked if same result didn't happen but that's results oriented.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-27-2016 , 06:12 PM
Sometimes you just gotta set mine with queens.

It was all going in on that flop no matter how you played it.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-27-2016 , 07:58 PM
This type of hand drives me insane when I'm stuck. 5-6 minutes to get to the flop, while each player ponders life-changing decisions? Like golf, television has promoted some bad habits.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-27-2016 , 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broomcorn's Uncle
This type of hand drives me insane when I'm stuck. 5-6 minutes to get to the flop, while each player ponders life-changing decisions? Like golf, television has promoted some bad habits.
Agreed. The Kings having some kind of wait time is fine but 7s should be folding faster than the raise gets in.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote
06-27-2016 , 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the munkey
Sometimes you just gotta set mine with queens.

It was all going in on that flop no matter how you played it.
I think if I flat and c/r all in there is a chance he folds. Regardless I think you're right on set mining and am happy to have figured out my mistake.
Some questions on 1/2 live play Quote

      
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