The problem with live poker is that you're getting looked up by rag A's a lot of the time, and then when the bare A flops we don't know whether or not the villain has hit it and paired his kicker too, or even worse has us outkicked.

As played turn seems like a bet/fold. We are going to check the river behind.

You can say that about any hand. That's not a good reason to fold a decent hand in position. That's what post flop play is for. I'm not saying you have to triple barrel every time.

I fold preflop without a second thought. We often won't be successful with the iso attempt after this many limpers plus we could get in trouble with A high flops. FWIW, my cutoff here is ATo simply because I can make the nut straight with it (and with this many limpers, even though ATo plays fairly poorly multiway, I'm probably overlimping and nutmining); A9o is virtually useless, imo. I'm also kinda surprised me narrowed the field to 3handed with just a $20 raise after 5 limpers (and totally shocked all the limpers folded after the button/BB call, wow); I'd easily be going $25+ if attempting this.

We've now kinda gotten ourselves in a pickle on the flop. We've got TPTK with an SPR of ~3 on a drawy board with a very vulnerable hand. I don't love it, but thanks to our preflop play, pot control is out the window and I think we're committed here. In which case I pot the flop in order to shove the turn.

As played, we've left ourselves in a tough spot on the turn now. I don't think we thought thru preflop/flop play enough, imo.

ETA: Can't believe all the "bet smaller on the flop"s. Everyone realizes that we've set up an SPR of 3 here and we's got TPTK on a super drawy board with an extremely vulnerable hand, right? We've made our bed, now let's lie in it, imo.

Gdopeoplestill"getthemselvesintoapickle"?G

GG= old.

I'm super tight up front and border on maniacal at times in LP. Most of the time this is a raise without even thinking for me. Sizing is table dependent. I guess not everyone is as comfortable post flop in position. I feel like people are maybe letting the fact that the turn card was the worst possible card affect their thoughts. If that thing bricks out we have tons of folds while collecting 50bb.

I don't generally count on inducing that many limpers to fold in this situation. Again, this was something I felt like I could get away with given the table dynamics I'd observed up to this point.

I am folding preflop unless I KNEW that I'd either get no callers preflop or only 1 caller preflop.

Even taking this 3 ways to the flop is bad for us (and completely disastrous if it's 4+ way).

We're not going to flop top pair a lot and our hand is basically a bluff with some value. I'd much rather have some hand that is not going to be dominated when our preflop raise gets called (i.e. I'd rather have 87s here than A9o).

This. 1/3 pot.

ETA... raise pre is ok, not great.

Well you could say let's play any hand in LP because we're so much better than the opponents post flop? The problem with this is, imo, that we're often going multiway with A9 which isn't that great of a hand full ring.

It's easy game live, so we want to just play when we have a monster edge, which is easily attainable by only playing solid cards, especially when it's going to be so difficult to put opponents on hands because they're fish.

And opponents can fold K2o or Q2o in this spot, they don't fold A2o. It's about making the game easy at these stakes imo.

Pre and flop seems standard.

Turn I'm betting again, probably ~$80-$85 and then checking back all rivers if called. Folding if he bets into me.

You can credibly have all the sets and all the over pairs, bet like 45%ish of the pot and fold to any raise or river bet. Against an unknown villain, your getting value from flush and oesd's/combo draws that will not check raise the turn or bluff lead brick rivers. he has to many draws to check it back.

Couple the above with the fact that your not getting 3 streets from Q9s, J9s types, but you might be able to get two. Betting the turn gets value from this part of his range and charges draws.

I like this much more than checking turn and bluff catching river, or hoping he calls a river bet. I would only be betting non spade A, 9 rivers btw.

oh and folding pre is to nitty and calling is awful. You played the hand fine to this point.

No one is saying your mandated to go nuts w/ A9 after the flop if it goes multi way and your getting a ton of resistance.

What happens considerably more than us getting in trouble against a vill who limp/called like AJ and we barrel away is, We raise $20 everyone folds. We raise $20, get a caller or two, see a flop, they check to us in position, we cbet, they fold.

You just have to use a bit of hand reading post flop. true you might not get 3 streets from A3 on a A T 6 2 6 board or whatever but you can't always be afraid of getting value owned/ dominated.

Further more, say you have AQs here, raise to $20, get 2 callers and the board runs out A T 8 7 J. Are you betting the river if you've been checked called the whole way? Probably not. Everything is player dependent, but your usually not going for 3 streets w/ top pair anyway.

What's wrong w/ getting called by A2 when we have A9 anyway? (in your example) Are we really afraid of being out played regularly by average llnl villains?

In live poker you just don't get enough premium hands to sit around and wait for them. You leave way to much value on the table by not playing pots in position against players who are considerably worse post flop then you are.

Well i personally would just fold pre.

Thank you Patch, you saved me a long post. LLSNL isn't about making the game easy by avoiding clearly profitable spots. It's about playing those spots better than the bad players at the table.

Well then if you're in with A9o you should be in with any ace?

They do go down in value the lower the kicker, although I'd rather have A5 than A6 for obvious reasons. Depending on the table, I'm blowing up the table with Ax in LP yes. Not always, but if they're not responding well to aggression, it doesn't take any ace at all for me to iso-beat the **** out of them.

By your logic we should just be playing any hand in position because were better than opponent.

There's no reason to reply to someone's turn question with "fold pre" No one cares what your opening range is pre flop.( not trying to insult) the reason someone posted a hand was to get different insight into a specific spot. He isn't asking "how would you avoid being in this situation on the turn."

I realize that 15 people will link me to or miss quote the limon post from years back. But really guys, you can always change the starting hands or whatever you want, it doesn't change the point. The point of the thread is "how do you continue with 2nd pair top kicker on a wet board on the turn." Why can't we just have discussion on that instead of the constant parade of "fold pre's?"

Everyone plays different and non of us where there. And honestly I'm sure that everyday when someone posts a hand, they don't care at all that you would fold pre flop. It's every F'n thread! Enough already

There's a ton of value to be had in spots like this. If you disagree, If you don't play that "style" or would never get to the turn in this spot, then don't respond. No big deal, move to the next thread. Don't derail the thread with arguments over what basically amounts to a personal preference or pre flop tendencies.

In some cases yup. I know my player pool well enough that I'll play ATC from LP at times. I'm not playing blind, but I don't really care what my cards are half the time. I'm just reading the board and the players. But that's a giant derail. Whether you want to believe it or not A9o is ahead of l/calling ranges from most villains and it's just bad luck that 2 of them called and the button cold called. That doesn't mean you'll be in that spot every time.

I actually like the discussion. Derail away. But first, on to the results.

Sounds like I'll get flamed even though it did happen to work out this time. I shoved for about 170. Villain folded QQ. Also, villain OTB said he folded JJ and I'm inclined to believe him as we had developed some friendly rapport. They both were convinced I had AA. I mucked and refused to divulge any info.

I thought I may be too passive of a player a few weeks ago. But the more feedback I get about my game, the more I feel like I may need to rein it in a bit, if anything.

Some will use this as evidence that you should notraisebig preflop, but you got QQ and JJ to fold so not so bad.

Don't do that. Just tell them what they wanna hear. Tell them you had AA. Make them feel good, knowing they made the "right" read and a "good" fold.

I think it's more useful not to give them anything. The only time I tell someone I had something is when I've called and lost. Then I just tell them I had the very net best hand to theirs haha.