Hero: Been card dead, so I can't have a TAG image since im not aggresive at all, bc i don't play and when i do I have had to throw the hand away to better. But i am a black male in his 30's so i just default to FOS image. In the past 3 hours I have played 3 hands to any extent and ironically they have been 3 of the last 5 hands. I have gone from 375 to 475, with no sow downs. So yeah, image might have changed.

V1: Spaz, This dude is on some stuff, He's going a mile a minute, sitting directly to my right and has been very active. Saying dumb things like, "bet 11 and i fold" ironically i turned a set on him he checked I bet 11 into a 40 dollar pot and he raised me. I called and bet the pot on the river when he checked, he folded. Stack size 175

V2: Young white guy, doesnt seem like a player, seems like a level one kid who is just gambling. Not wearing hoddie and headphones for what its worth.
Stack size 500

Hero is on the button with 44. MP raises 10, V1 calls, I call on the button. V2 calls.

Flop 43k Pot 40

MP checks, V1 bets 15, hero raises to 45 (maybe too small)

V2 calls (I know this kid has a flush draw) MP folds V1 spazzes out, starts stacking and dropping chips and finally says all in while shoving chips 3 at a time in the pot.

Now I am just so happy he reoppened it up raising me another 85.


Do you shove here, or raise close to the pot? Not this raise is going to commit me anyway no matter what happens on the turn, so I am thinking just shove. However the shove might just get him off the flush draw.

In this position would you advise shoving anyway and making him call huge, or charge him enough to deny odds but also small enough he might think of still calling?

For what it's worth I shove, but i did it because I wanted him to fold and as he thought about it for 7 minutes I thought, maybe i shouldn't just want him to fold here.

Thoughts?

I did some math, pretty sure it's right, that's all this hand is now imo.

We have the 4h, so he has 8 outs for the flush, but we can boat so he's high-20%, be Villain-generous and give him 30%. There's about $295 in the pot before you call V1 ai, and we have $425 behind. If instead of putting in the extra $75 to call, you put in $221 that would be a breakeven spot for V to chase his fd. The problem is, if we're putting in more than half of our remaining stack, we're committed, so with IO V has odds to draw, so as long as that is the situation, might as well just shove.

So to answer the question of the title, in order to charge him properly (inc. future streets/bets) we need to ship, not quite deep enough to charge him w/o shipping.

Yeah see that was my thought process. But is that the right way to think? We are committing ourselves so just shove anyway vs, I only get a call if I make it close to break even for him?

I know the math, but what I wonder about is what are we putting more weight towards; How committed we are, or getting him to chase?

Like i said, I shoved, but thought to myself, maybe that's a chicken move.

Chances are villain has no idea about 'odds' and whether or not he's getting them.

He's thinking 'That's a hell of a lot of money I am going to be wagering. Do I want to put that much money in on a draw?' Even if you were giving him better than the right odds and pointed that out to him, he's not going to use that to make the right decision.

If you call, chances are he will call. It's a smaller amount of real money. Then you shove the turn if it's not a heart and he might convince himself to call because it's just $xxx.

Combined the two numbers are the same, but split in two bets he might be more willing to call.

I know Vs never think about odds. But that's 1 of our huge advantages, that with draws, we get the right odds from them because of this, and when they have draws they get the wrong price from us for the same reason. So that's why I'm just doing math here and not thinking about much else.

There are time when it is, but not here imo.

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A majority of turn cards won't scare us or help V (he might just have a K and be dead) so flatting otf and shoving turns is also a reasonable play. I'm not saying just ship, but if you're taking the raise route, to not put it all in is bad.