Interesting hand in a 1/2 NL game....never seen Villain 1 before but have been playing with him for a few hours and seems ok. Villain 2 is a good player....often plays bigger stakes games.

Hero ($325 stack) has A2 MP and calls.

6 people to flop ($12)

Flop 458

Villain 1 ($400+) in SB leads out 5
Villain 2 ($170) UTG+1 calls 5 folds to Hero
Hero raises to $20

V1 & V2 both call.....

Turn ($72) 4

V1 checks
V2 bets $65

Hero???

call

This is a tough spot. Do you know what the villain's think of you? Do you think they'd put you on a flush draw if you raised the flop?

Assuming not, then I don't think you have the fold equity you need to make raising the right play. I don't really like calling because (a) you might be drawing dead and (b) you can't really expect to get paid if you hit (unless one of them flopped a straight...maybe). I think that makes this a fold, but I sure wouldn't like it.

V1 -I don't think he was thinking enough to have an opinion of me
V2 -Has played with me before and probably has me on draw of some sort and could be leading out to take control of the pot not realizing how strong my hand is


Unless one of them has the 3 I'm not drawing dead!

Or 44,55,45,88...

i have to say before this thread goes into a trainwreck, that folding turn is LOL.


Im not going to argue about it, but folding turn is absolutely no different than folding flop cause donk lead means he has a straight.

Don't think villain takes this line with a straight IMO.

I think this is kind of tough. If I call, I am shoving if we miss (and representing the boat). At least you say v2 is 'good', so this line is consistent with boat.

It really depends if my image is clean enough to do this. If not, I probably fold.

I could be convinced that folding the turn is wrong, but I don't think it's "LOL wrong" -- I think this is a tough spot. And I'm curious why you think folding here is the same as folding on the flop (It's too bad you're not going to argue about it ). We have more information now (eg, both villains called our flop raise, the board paired, and a new villain is betting). If you think we're priced in, I'm pretty sure you have to assume that either both villains are calling or that we'll get paid if a flush comes, and I don't think either of those are obviously true.

I probably fold the turn.
Fairly surprised ANL thinks that's lolbad, but I'm sure he has his reasons.

As long as you didn't open-limp I like everything so far and I like a fold here most of the time.

I glad to hear most people think folding was a good play here because that's what I did but it I didn't like it and after the hand was over I was thinking I should have called.

V1 called the $65 (had I known that I would have called for sure)

River J

V1 checks V2 all in V1 folds

V2 shows the A

Could you explain your rationale for calling the turn? V2 is the aggressor in the hand, and he only has about $85 left or so after he donks the turn. At best, we probably have about 13 outs: 8 diamonds, three 3's, and 3 Aces (if we're being optimistic); this means we will only make a hand on the river about 25% of the time, which means our implied odds aren't good enough here. Are we calling so we can shove the river no matter what comes (assuming V2 lets us)? Are we calling so we can encourage V1 (the deeper player) to come along for the ride? Or is there another reason that I'm missing?

Ur getting ~2-to-1 to make the call and Villain has ~$85 behind. If u have 12 outs u have to be getting less than 2.5-to-1 pot odds. The pot would be ~$200 (if u called and the other villain didn't) so getting the villain to call another $35-40 wouldn't be a big deal. The board pairing does not make me too happy but w/e.

i may fold on account of V2's stack size and range, but if V1 has any tendency to come along for the ride (i.e. overcall) we're calling all day for IO.

by the way villains extremely rarely play a FH like V2. why the fick would he have a full house here. he could be protecting trip 4s but the rest of his range is weaker.

this is reads dependent. i would use more specific reads which i was hopefully getting on both villains at the table to determine their ranges more specifically, and look for physical tells on whether V1 was contemplating a call or a fold, and also consider his overcalling frequency if this info was available, and based on that make the decision. if V1 looks like he's folding i think we fold, b/c V2's range is almost always ahead of us

> p.s. re. overcalling frequencies: i've played at a few tables where this was super important. usually tables where there are some drinks being had and a few aggro-LAG players and a few spew-LAG players, and one or two callers triggers a cascade of callers behind, for ridiculous amounts. at these tables, i would call with low PP's directly to the left of the raiser for $20 no problem, b/c this would always trigger 3 or 4 more calls, giving me superb set mining odds.

ya i fold turn and dont even feel too dirty about it

Unless villain has a boat (which is unlikely given the action) u have 8 flush outs (if villain has a 4) and 3 straight outs for a total of 11. With 11 outs u need to get 3.2-to-1 to make the call. Currently ur getting 2.1-to-1 in actual pot odds (if V1 doesn't come along.) That means, if u hit ur draw, u need to make $72 on the river. The pot will be $202 (if not $267) V1 has $85 and V2 has a lot more. I'm sorry but this is a call.

ayo - V2 took the betting lead on the turn and is the short stack not the flipside.

That said, with bad relative position im not liking this spot as much unless V1 is a calling station and wont pop if i make the over call and will call closer to a majority of the time behind me.

At 1/2, its more likely that than anything else, which might make me say call but without further info on villains play its harder to give a solid piece of advice here.

Shoving aint good because V1 will fold and V2 only has a few bucks left. That said, flatting is probably better because it allows V2 to put his money in with great pot odds on the river. but if V2 is lolbad, he may just check that river and if V1 doesnt come along for the ride, you are probably not getting called when he checks not matter if the pot were a million dollars and he only needed to put in 50 bucks on the river. Terrible players to terrible things, we've all seen it happen. its like open folding on the big blind instead of checking the option. Why!? it happens.

My goal is to keep V1 in the pot and at 1/2, i feel like flatting is doing that, however - that said, i dont think we make enough often enough on the river to make it possible. Too many cards come that kill action and we dont have enough fold equity at the river to make up for the pot odds.

semibluffing with stacks this short in a low level game in my experience just adds up to FANCY PLAY SYNDROME.
take what you are being offered: correct expressed odds to draw to your hand,( because they dont know how to bet thier hands properly),
and great implied odds to get paid off when you hit ,because low level plyrs hate folding.
semibluffing is profitable if your opponents demonstrate that they are making the mistake of folding too much. you never see this in these games.
if they really suck, and pay off way too much, then semi-bluffing is also really bad, because i don't want them to fold FOR VALUE, my draw has too much value; there is no money in the pot that you are spewwing at, and you have them in a situation where they are never going to win a big pot, but you can.
if you bloat the pot, you are unnessisrily putting them in a spot where they can win a big pot from you. if you stop and think about it, it's really stupid to semibluff in these games unless you have glaring fold equity, which almost never happens.
don't bluff, or semi-bluff unless youre playing 10/20 NL, the $ is never deep enough, and its pointless repping a hand to plyrs who cant handread.

how are we getting correct express odds to call?