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Set KK on the turn facing a shove Set KK on the turn facing a shove

03-02-2015 , 06:22 AM
1/2 hand from two nights ago

Hero: Male 30s reg at the casino TAG, perceived as rather tight at the particular day as the only hands that went to showdown were at least TPTK so far.

Villain1 : Female tight rec, classic tight passive not aware of position and stack sizing. Level 1 thinking player that plays rarely at the casino

Villain2: Online middle stakes tournament pro that the last month tries at 1/2 daily.

On to the hand:

Hero in MP1 (stack: 400) with KK opens for 12 after 1 limper from UTG

Villain 1 on hero's direct right makes the call rather quickly (as she does always when she wants to play) (Stack 170ish)
Another caller on the BTN and Villain 2 in SB calls after asking who made the raise. V2 covers.
The rest fold

Flop ( pot 52)

9h 6h 4s

Villain 2 leads into 4 people for 30
I think for a while and I call as I think he has more overpairs in his range and sets rather than draws. I have played with V2 multiple times the past month and he is quite tight.
Villain 2 calls also rather quickly

Turn Kh (pot 142)
V1 checks, Hero checks ??? and V2 insta shoves her remain 120.
V1 folds and Hero pukes on the table :-)
Hero tanks, tanks tanks. I am pretty sure she has AQh. I puke again :-)
I believe I played this hand horribly so far

Hero???????
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 08:25 AM
flop is probably a raise at those stack depths and as played turn is likely a fold even tho tourney pros are largely terrible at cash and might have something dumb here a small %
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 08:58 AM
Preflop looks ok. I tend to raise a little bigger, esp if 12 is getting four way action. A lot of times I start at 15 and add 2 per limper so here might have made it 17, esp with a station to me immediate left (in OP, you state she's on your right but I think you mean left).
Flop: I think you have to raise here. Don't let someone else define the action in this hand esp since I don't think that his donk bet is the right size. I would click it back or maybe make it 75. You don't state V2s stack and that's important here bc if V2 is short stacked, I def raise his flop bet with no fear. If he's deep, I possibly raise/fold. But by just calling, you lack info on his hand and give a nice price to all draws behind you. If you make it 75, V1 isn't getting a good price AND when she shoves the turn, you're getting odds to draw to your full house against her possible flush.
Turn: is V1 ever able to make a move here? Would she bet the heart knowing its a scare card? Is she the kind of person who might not notice the flush and just be betting her own relative hand strength? The turn obvi improved your hand but put the possible flush out there. I don't think you can bet fold because any bet commits you against her stack but I do think, as played, I might bet 50. If she shoves, you're getting four to one from the pot and have to call, and you remove a lot of her bluffs. As played, you check the turn and she goes all in. If your read is that she has the flush here, you're not getting the right price and I guess it's a puke fold but I personally have a lot of trouble folding top set on the turn.
This hand seems to hinge on the flop: I think you have to raise this flop. The online player taking stabs at live play bets out -- that could be a very wide range, from A9 - 97, and lots of suited combos and draws. You have to raise that bet because as played, you gave V1 great immediate pot odds to continue with any FD.

Last edited by Dutchstreetfish; 03-02-2015 at 09:00 AM. Reason: Typo
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutchstreetfish
Preflop looks ok. I tend to raise a little bigger, esp if 12 is getting four way action. A lot of times I start at 15 and add 2 per limper so here might have made it 17, esp with a station to me immediate left (in OP, you state she's on your right but I think you mean left).
Flop: I think you have to raise here. Don't let someone else define the action in this hand esp since I don't think that his donk bet is the right size. I would click it back or maybe make it 75. You don't state V2s stack and that's important here bc if V2 is short stacked, I def raise his flop bet with no fear. If he's deep, I possibly raise/fold. But by just calling, you lack info on his hand and give a nice price to all draws behind you. If you make it 75, V1 isn't getting a good price AND when she shoves the turn, you're getting odds to draw to your full house against her possible flush.
Turn: is V1 ever able to make a move here? Would she bet the heart knowing its a scare card? Is she the kind of person who might not notice the flush and just be betting her own relative hand strength? The turn obvi improved your hand but put the possible flush out there. I don't think you can bet fold because any bet commits you against her stack but I do think, as played, I might bet 50. If she shoves, you're getting four to one from the pot and have to call, and you remove a lot of her bluffs. As played, you check the turn and she goes all in. If your read is that she has the flush here, you're not getting the right price and I guess it's a puke fold but I personally have a lot of trouble folding top set on the turn.
This hand seems to hinge on the flop: I think you have to raise this flop. The online player taking stabs at live play bets out -- that could be a very wide range, from A9 - 97, and lots of suited combos and draws. You have to raise that bet because as played, you gave V1 great immediate pot odds to continue with any FD.
Indeed V2 is on my direct left. V1 covers me with around 450.
I believe also I should raise the flop here around 90 to 100. I think this was my first mistake.
OTR I am around 100% sure that she has exactly AQh and only that hand given the fact that the Kh is on the board. If I had raised the flop I dont think she would put her money in with a draw as she played a little bit scared money.But I have also difficulty folding top set. I know that I am not getting the right price and I am beating myself for not raising the flop against the donk lead.
The online guy though is playing reasonably well the previous sessions and I was worried that he would donk lead with a set (I would probably do that also :-) to play for stacks).
That was my reasoning behind my flat call so I can evaluate the turn. Obv a wrong move as a raise/fold line I believe is best here.

What do you think V1 range is here? I dont think he has such a weak hand like A9 as he would fold it OOP given that he is dominated a big percentage of the time by my range and V2's and he knows that.

I had
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 11:04 AM
Raise/fold the flop is a pretty dicey line against good opponents, because they can comfortably ship combo draws (which they have a lot of) over your raise. If your only raise/call hand is 99, you can be brutally exploited. I still raise here though, but you probably need to call with some fairly weak hands as well unless you have a read that he's unlikely to make that play.

As played, the turn is a fold because V2 has a flush, and you are not getting odds.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 11:15 AM
Definitely raising flop, probably getting it in if necessary since you're really only worried about sets and not many two pair combos on that board. As played I'm calling it off for $120, pair the board if you have to...then kick yourself for not raising the flop, even though V probably calls it off with a FD anyway.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 12:35 PM
Other than trying to piece together a confusing HH, I'm calling "her" all in...assuming "v2" on the turn = the "v1" chick from the description. If she has no awareness, and is thinking level1, then she would play any pocket pair like it's the nuts.

Its 1/2 against a "her" that never plays. She gets lucky, she gets lucky. She probably has a hand like A9 aka the nuts.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 01:10 PM
PF: Bigger!

F: (4) handed. Pot is $52. SPR is 3 (V1) and 7 (rest). Don't call, raise for value.

T: (3) handed. Pot is $142. The flush came in. Why aren't we betting for value and charging draws? Do we just want another heart to come on the turn and lose the hand? As played, damn! I just don't see this villain doing this without the flush. She's not bluffing here. I'd fold.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Below Zero
PF: Bigger!

F: (4) handed. Pot is $52. SPR is 3 (V1) and 7 (rest). Don't call, raise for value.

T: (3) handed. Pot is $142. The flush came in. Why aren't we betting for value and charging draws? Do we just want another heart to come on the turn and lose the hand? As played, damn! I just don't see this villain doing this without the flush. She's not bluffing here. I'd fold.
BZ what part of
Quote:
Originally Posted by samangr

Villain1 : Female tight rec, classic tight passive not aware of position and stack sizing. Level 1 thinking player that plays rarely at the casino

Villain 1 on hero's direct right makes the call rather quickly (as she does always when she wants to play) (Stack 170ish)
Makes you think she has the flush? I'm putting a huge part of her range on PPs.

Do you play 1/2? Vs fitting this description play a wide variety of hands fast. If we consistently fold here, we're losing a ton of equity. Sometimes we just have to call. Unlucky is unlucky. But a huge percentage of the time, we're way good, maybe fading the 4th heart. Lots of time she's drawing dead.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 01:26 PM
Flushs are the top of her range. Also pps, other sets, Ah9...think u gotta call. Even if shes at the top of her range ur not drawing dead
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 01:34 PM
The part where he describes V1 as "classic tight passive". I do play 1/2 and I don't see tight passive players shoving close to pot here without the nuts. I just don't.

I wouldn't say that "...a huge percentage of the time, we're way good..." I would say sometimes we are good.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 01:47 PM
Depends on how certain you are that V2 has a flush. More than 80% (more than 4 out of 5 times) V2 has the flush, fold. Any less, I think you have the odds to call.

Nobody here can tell you what those odds are better than you should know yourself.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 01:51 PM
AA QQ JJ tt 99 AK AQ AJ AT A9s KQ KJ QT Q9 99 88 77 66 55 44 33 22 are all the hands this tight/passive player "calls fast when she wants to play" with PF. She calls the flop fast with 15 of the 22 hands in her range. She turns a flush with 25% of her four suited ace combos and her Q10s. She jams the turn with 11 of those hands.

I like money. I call.

After throwing her jam range into the gonc'ulator, we're a 9-1favorite.

Last edited by Boilerdan; 03-02-2015 at 01:58 PM.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 02:00 PM
Feel like her range is
{AA, 99, 44, AK, Ax, QJ, JT}

It's probably a sigh call

Last edited by johnny_on_the_spot; 03-02-2015 at 02:11 PM.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 02:11 PM
She jams with AA QQh AK AJh ATh Ah9 QJh QTh JTh 99 66 44. Im not sure she insta-calls PF with JTs but I'll throw it in as part of her range.

We have 7 of those hands demolished. The board pairs 20% of the time if we're behind. She does not have a flush often enough for us to fold.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 02:32 PM
I would bet more pre, probably $15-20. Ideally you'll be heads up against the UTG limper. You don't want to play KK multiway. You need to raise on the flop. Calling encourages drawing hands from the other 2 players to call. I would raise to $100.

Brutal spot on the turn. It's important to note that the failure to bet more preflop and on the flop caused this tough decision. Raising the flop announces your commitment to the hand given the stack sizes and you can fearlessly get your money in on the turn. You don't have correct odds to call if villain has a flush, which it seems she does. However, if you give her 6 flush combos (AQ/AJ/AT/QJ/JT/87), you only need to give her 1 set combo to make calling correct. It's not unrealistic to think a tight-passive player would call the flop and shove the turn with a set. I would reluctantly call.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot
Feel like her range is
{AA, 99, 44, AK, Ax, QJ, JT}

It's probably a sigh call
Simple range analysis doesn't work well enough for these types of spots. We have to also weight each one of these with how often V actually plays the hand this way.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote
03-02-2015 , 09:25 PM
I think its a good time to post results.
I puke call, the other V folds the board never pairs she has AhQh.

In general I played this hand terribly I think. I think the raise pre is ok as on this night the standard raise was 8 by most of the players except myself. Should have raised the flop and if called should have shoved turn.
Set KK on the turn facing a shove Quote

      
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