seems like an incredibly obvious re shove - if villain had 200+ behind then this might be a tricky spot

With biggish stacks at the table, don't we have to start raising a little more preflop to make setmining/etc. unprofitable? I mean, right now a $10 raise could be justifiably called by a lotta hands (there's only one player at the table whose stack size is such that he's making a poor play here calling with a speculative hand).

Flop looks standard enough to me.

I think I might raise more on the turn. A $100 raise is giving him 3:1 odds, so I'd probably attempt to offer him something slightly worse. If we raised to $150, that'll create a $400 pot so an very tolerable $150 shove on the river. If he's got a Kx hand, I don't think there's any difference in the frequency he calls $100 vs $150. If he calls with the flush draw and hits, we'll have to pay him off on the river, but he's made a big mistake calling on the turn.

As played, I think I ship the river. He shows up with AK or a set far more times than AA. The only other possibility is a backdoor flush draw; does he really call $30 on the flop with a gutshot?

GcluelessNLnoobG

What passive hands that are behind us on the turn donk / call big bet moved ahead of us on the river? The only reasonable one is AA (and even passives usually 3bet this preflop so as not to get sucked out on). The other hands that do this were behind us all the way (i.e. AK/set/weirdotwopair).

I agree that this player ain't donking the river without 2pair+, but we're ahead of more hands than behind.

I doubt someone he describes as rarely being the aggressor is playing a bd flush this aggressively on turn. Min raise all in. Hate your betsizing throughout though, why are you betting so small? Seems like you are generally losing value...

I re-raise him all in. He called and showed 3 5 of hearts for the runner runner flush with a flopped pair of 3's.

Here is my TR:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/10...-aria-1045241/

But the $25 turn bet wasn't an aggressive bet, it was a blocker. Villain was trying to set his own price to draw.

I also felt his river bet could have been a blocker as well, maybe 2 random pairs.

Larger turn raise. Shove river. Nh.

Bottom pair, no kicker, no draw on flop (He's ahead of what? AQ spades?). And goes r/r for the the miracle payday. Sigh.

And nobody in this thread saw this coming, which just reminds all of us that many Villains do things for reasons that make no sense.

Even with results i think river play is fine

I think the focus should be on the turn. In particular, I'm wondering if hero should have shoved?

I think turn u need to raise more. V1 was setting his price at 25/150 instead u make it 75/300. While this is quite a bit more I think opponent still calls on the draw and you are always going to play river bad. If the diamond falls and v1 shoved then what? If blank falls and villain checks are u getting a third street of value from worse (leaving 200 behind and 300 itp). If bdfd closes we r always paying it off.

Also I don't think you are giving a fair image for your villian. Imo a tight player would not be the first limper with 35s.

I don't think you can go wrong either way. Just reload and remember this guy's face for the next time you show up. I would call on the river if he was as tight-passive as you described in intro. But if he's the kind of player who limp/calls PF with 53s then I re-raise all in. You just caught a bad break this time.

He did not limp, he defended his BB after 2 other callers.

Fwiw does this still count as tight? I am just getting into posting but I would expect that a player calling all suited connect oop would be considered loose. And if we think of our opponent as passive does the blocking bet looks like a draw but or the turn we have no idea which draw. Also if we plan on stacking the bdfd then I really hate turn bet size because we are laying 75/500 which means he is getting proper odds at his bdfd plus he is going to be able to bluff other flush

To those saying OP should raise more on the turn, understand that he got the villain to put in $75 at 3-1 pot odds as a 5-1 dog. This is good, this is how you make money. Pricing out the draws will win you money, but not as much as getting them to call with improper odds.

Yes. we got outdrawn this time, it doesn't mean OP played it badly.

You're result oriented.

I don't think that its being results oriented but more of a situation where bet sizing can be improved. I think leaving 200 behind to play for is a mistake. In this spot I would try to bet as much as I can to diminish the implied odds my opponent has. 75/500 is too good of a price if most are still stacking off here. 75/400 if we flat when he bets 100. I think shoving turn is bad unless we expect a call. I think 125-150 is optimal on the turn we then have near 1/2 psb on river and have neutralized the implied odds of the draws. We can now call a shove on any river and shove when checked too.

Problem with less is we might find a file when the flush draw comes in which would be bad. We also get into a spot where we are going to stack off when the bdfd closes. That is a lot of rivers we are playing bad and the remainder of river we might not be able to get the last 200 in. Imo easier to gii by betting 135/165 then 100/200.

While I am thinking about turn bet sizing, somehow the pot and stack sizes have been inflated.

According to the OP, the pot was $100 on the turn when the villain donked the $25. With the villain starting with $300, that should have left the villain with $235.

Once Hero puts in the call amount to the turn donk, the pot is $150.

Now, since villains turn donk looks like some kind of blocker (as stated before the results), I just don't think offering 3:1 (with another 4:1 in implied odds) is the best play - which is what hero's play did (a $75 raise).

However, Hero only has $235 effective to work with in a $150 pot.

As played, the villain got 7:1 on his turn call (largely because hero shoved the river).

I'm not suggesting hero shoves the turn, but I don't think the $75 raise is right either.

I am in the shove river camp, but here is some food for thought... He was getting 3:1 and was a5:1 dog going to the river. So he needed another ~$150 in implied odds to draw to the flush. He probably thought he had two 3s and three 5s as outs too but w/e. He bets $100 on the river. If we just call, he didn't get the proper odds to draw, but by raising we ended up giving him the implied od'd he needed. I'm not saying he should know that, but it happened. Sometimes against an opponent we think will fold to a shove without the flush, maybe we just flat here on the river to make sure we don't party him enough to make his implied its correct on his turn cal?

I'm positive in real time with the descriptions given I shove here, but something I've been working on is not-auto paying off in these spots so I don't give good implied odds to draws. Of course if never be in this exact situation because I for sure wood have raised more pre, and even as played would have raised more on the turn.

OK, so you bet and/or raise more before the river. Are you doing this to blindly avoid giving villains good odds, or are you planning the hand to both protect it and get stacks in?

Both but more the second. When I flop a set of kings I wanna GII we all do so now its time to plan. On the flop we are going to need a raise to get to less then 1 PSR before the river. On the turn the villain makes the mistake of making a blocking bet with his draw. This is a perfect opportunity for us to get maximum value and play our hand correct.

My biggest worry before the turn donk bet would be:

1) am I every getting three streets of value all in
2) what am I going to do if the flush draw closes (not the BDFD)

IE as played if we get to the river with 200 behind and 300 in the middle what are we going to do if a heart falls and villain bets all in for $200? What about when the diamond falls? what about when a QJT fall to fill the gutters. It wasn't mentioned but the 6 is a sick card because now a 2-5-7 can make straights on the river to suited connectors. So my play would be to get as much money in ahead on the turn and also making it easier to get it all in on the river when villain checks. With $200 behind it's going to be hard to get worse hands to call on the river (when we don't make a house and are left with a set).

Now remove the donk bet. with $100 in the middle we can maybe cbet $60-$70. This is going to be an even tougher spot then how the hand played out. If we cbet and villain calls again then there is $220 in the middle and $240 behind. with a little more then a PSB on the river how often can we GII on the river good? I really am just using this example to show how the turn donk opens up the hand for us to play it better IMO.

Bet 125 instead of 100. Now we are giving our villain 100 to win 500 which is break even. Now I basically have no problem GII on the river because it's now 1/2 PSB ($175 behind $350 in the middle) and I would expect the villain to either bluff most rivers and we have a great bluff catching hand, and we can raise all river all in because our hand crushes villain bluff catching range.


It was a really good hand and had some sick board texture, to not think hard about the situation and chalk it up to a BDFD cooler is doing it an injustice. The bet sizing is a small leak but it can make a huge difference on the BBs we plan on winning in the long run. Most player think far enough ahead to give their opponents a bad price (they are thinking in terms of now) with out thinking about the implied (or reverse implied odds). In this hand our reverse implied odds are sick, we are basically always going broke unless villain bets less than all in. When our reverse implied odds are terrible we should either fold (NEVER AN OPTION WITH THE NUTS NLHE IMO) or get in as much money now and reduce the implied odds. This would be different if we had like 4 PSB but since we can get it under one and to half I think not getting it there is a huge miss.. Sorry that ended up being longer then I thought

Wow I just reread my post. I really need to stop posting from my phone because there are just too many spelling errors. I will address your questions tomorrow from a pc jaykon.

Before you respond, consider a couple things: I doubt this type of player considers anything but absolute bet sizing and that (given the river donk) probably doesn't consider position, or hand reading beyond the end of his nose either.

Both of these conditions happen all the time and is almost normal.