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Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river?

05-25-2014 , 09:54 PM
1/2 game
Table is pretty much a limp fest and fairly passive in middle of the afternoon. Did see a couple of different people betting middle 2p with decent size bets into 3 and 4 flush/straight boards like they had the nuts and get called by lower 2p. So it wasnt that bad.

MP - Hero (350 stack) been at the table for about 1hr. Was opening to 10-12 pre and either all folds or folds on c-bets. I did have one hand were I opened 22 over a couple of limps, one caller. Flop was something like T53. I cbet in position and was called. Turn was a Q. Again it went check/bet/call. River paired one of the low flop cards and it went check/check. I had a feeling V thought he had the nuts. He was dying to turn over his cards. And when I checked he emphatically turned over AK like it was the nuts. Table thought I was 'lucky'.

UTG - V (180 or so stack) in this hand was at the table before I got there. Fairly passive, havent really seem him play much and mostly just calling. No notable hands.

UTG - V (180) limps
MP - Hero (350) TT raises to 12
BB - v from hand above calls
UTG - Calls

Flop (pot 36) - QT9
BB - Checks
UTG - Checks
MP (hero) Bets 30
BB - folds
UTG - Calls

Turn (96) - K
UTG - Checks
MP (hero) - Checks.

Flush completes and 4 to straight I am not sure if I am viewed as an agrrodonk who bets pocket 2s and V was waiting to check/raise. Also, V was in seat 10 and Hero was in Seat 1 so it was tough to get any real visual read.

River (96) - 8

Final Board: QT9K8

UTG - Checks
Hero - ?

I am fairly certain I am ahead here. In hindsight maybe I should be bet/folding the turn. On the river after V checks, I am always good here right? If V was going to ch/raise the turn is he ever checking essentialy a blank? And if I bet, how big? Pot is 96 and V has ~140 or so.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-25-2014 , 10:06 PM
Do not bet turn. You're not getting called, and value you're getting is extremely marginal. You're facing two pair here a lot so if you think he's going to make a stupid call with it, then sure. That said I think good villains (or even just nitty ones) may check a J here so I'm not sure if you should really say you're definitely ahead.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-25-2014 , 10:17 PM
Check back river, super wet board with no real value considering he folds most and even check calls some jacks since the flush hit and he may only perceive value from bluff catching with a jack. Good check on turn as well as any call on that board represents marginal value at best.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-25-2014 , 10:19 PM
I check ott. When bad Vs have made hands they [without knowing it] price us out of chasing our outs because they just get so excited they have huge hands, they overbet. So I'd take the free card to hit the boat/quads when it checks to us ott. After 3 checks though I'd value bet otr. V could have a straight and be scared of the flush but more 2pair combos exist than Jx combos.

This is a good example of betting our opponent's hand. We can't turn TTT into a bluff and overbet to rep the flush and fold out the straight. We want to get called by 2pair. So I'd bet low enough to guarantee we get called by 2pair. $35.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-25-2014 , 10:20 PM
Bet river. Sometimes villain will have straight but we will get called more than 50% of the time by other hands which makes this a profitable bet.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-25-2014 , 11:53 PM
If we bet the river to 35, I'm counting almost 50 hand combos of AK/2p which call us. That is way more hands than the flushes and straights which he checks twice. If you think he calls 50 with those hands bet that. This is a great thin value spot. You will get a lot of folds from Kx and Qx which called the flop but there's no point in targeting those. Folding to a raise obviously, but not expecting one with this action.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 12:15 AM
If we bet ~1/2 pot ($50) and V shoves for $88 more, we'll have just 88/372, 23% equity required to call.

Given stack sizes, I'm going for the thin value OTT and OTR. I probably bet $55-65 or so OTT, and call a shove. If there's any money left OTR, I'm probably moving in.

There's lots of 2p and 1- hands V can have that he'll call OTT with.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 08:39 AM
Check turn and $40-$45 on the river. Sure sometimes you'll run into a showdown happy Jx but there are a ton of two pair combos on this board you can get called by.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 09:29 AM
I don't know who you're playing that would pay you off with 2p there.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 09:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
I don't know who you're playing that would pay you off with 2p there.
Terrible players. Sometimes they call just to complain about a bad beat I think.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrindPokerAllDay
Bet river. Sometimes villain will have straight but we will get called more than 50% of the time by other hands which makes this a profitable bet.
What? Where are you getting 50% from? If we bet this river it is a bluff to get a straight to fold which never happens, easy check back on the river.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
I don't know who you're playing that would pay you off with 2p there.
Not sure how fishy I am for this...but if someone bets 30 into a 100 pot, I'm pretty tempted to make a crying call with a good 2pr here. I would tell myself that he likely has a straight or flush but that he could be value cutting himself with AK or a worse 2 pair. And the bet is so small...35 I might be folding, but 25? Ugh. 20? At some point I'll be making a crying call. And I don't see why that wouldn't be the case for other players as well, and if they are fishy maybe they will call bigger bets which is where our reciprocity is.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 12:20 PM
I think it's okay to throw out a thin bet. Make it $25 and be willing to fold to a raise.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 12:25 PM
That's not how it works. For you to call, you must put him on a hand you beat. Which you can't really on this board unless they turn their two pair or whatever into a bluff...? So no basically.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 12:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beauvanlaanen
What? Where are you getting 50% from? If we bet this river it is a bluff to get a straight to fold which never happens, easy check back on the river.
I'm never bluffing this river but against 1 bad villain (which is who we are against), I'm betting this for value and if more than 50% of the time we are called by worse then this is profitable. The flush definitely complicates this as villain could have a Jack in his hand but in general players at this level do not value bet enough with hands such as sets on 4 card straight boards.

Obviously if the villain has worse he knows he can't beat a straight or a flush. However, he's not doing complex hand reading. To a villain like this a bet here looks like a monster or nothing. In other words he expects us to have a very polarized range here and thus we can get additional value by depolarizing our range.

Aside from that, as I stated previously some players are just so bad and so psychologically tied to a hand that they will call the river with worse knowing they are beat and then complain about how bad they run. My last session the biggest fish at the table had dropped 4+ buyins and I was sitting next to him and saw him call a bet on a board like this with 3rd pair. The bigger the fish and the more tilted the fish the more likely they are to make some really bad calls.

FWIW, I believe this particular spot is marginally close but in general this concept is very important.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 12:49 PM
Bet/folding rivers is insanely profitable when you are viewed as a LAG.

45 here can and will get called by worse > 50% of the time.

People love to be a hero vs. the crazy LAG.

Passive 1-2 players will have EVERY combo of 2-pair out there in their range and play it the exact same way. They will also have 1 pair hands here (wtf?) that they will call with. They will also have a good amount of Jx (J7s+ish) but not too many flushes with the river check.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beauvanlaanen
What? Where are you getting 50% from? If we bet this river it is a bluff to get a straight to fold which never happens, easy check back on the river.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader
That's not how it works. For you to call, you must put him on a hand you beat. Which you can't really on this board unless they turn their two pair or whatever into a bluff...? So no basically.
You guys play in some tough 1/2 games. You don't play with the guys who'll push their chips in while they say "You're good" or "Let me see the Jack" or "I know you got me but I gotta see it anyway?" That's a big portion of the 1/2 player pool in most rooms.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote
05-26-2014 , 03:15 PM
Results

Hero checked and mhig. V mucked. I was pretty sure V didnt have a flush. I was worried about a random J.
Set 10s - can I keep value bet the river? Quote

      
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