1/3, $500 max, 9 handed, $700-$800 effective. It's early evening on a Sunday, with a much different cast of characters and a generally calmer game than what I'm used to seeing on Friday/Saturday nights.

V1 - LJ. Middle aged Latino guy, absolute maniac, VPIP >70%, RFI >40%, c-bet >90%, yet <5% 3B and <5% continue vs a 3B. Only redeeming qualities as a player are that he's driving most of the action at the table, and he'll over-fold to post-flop aggression. Haven't seen him show down very many hands, but about half of what he showed down started as pre-flop trash that flopped lucky or was turned into an ambitious bluff that got snapped off, often light.

V2 - HJ. Youngish Asian girl, literally reading a math textbook at the table, super-nit, VPIP <10%, RFI <5%. Mostly playing what appears to be fit-or-fold post-flop.

V3 - BTN. 60-ish white guy, uber-rock. VPIP ~10%-15%, RFI ~5%, been complaining to me and the OMC on his right about the maniac and dying to pick up a hand he can take to war. Hero hasn't seen him play very many hands in the last hour, and has never seen him show down a weak hand. Fairly fit-or-fold post.

Hero - SB. 50-ish white guy, TAG-ish with occasional lapses into LAG-ish. VPIP ~20%-25%, RFI ~10%-15%. Been commiserating with V3 about V1, and let it slip that I noticed V1 c-bets too much and will over-fold to post-flop aggression, admitting I check-raised him on the flop with unsuited disconnected trash from the BB recently (previous orbit), getting him to fold like a lawn chair.

OTTH...

Folds to V1 who makes it $15 in the LJ. V2 in HJ calls. OMC in the CO rage-mucks. V3 on BTN 3B to $75. Hero in SB looks down at AQss.

Hero flat calls, BB folds, V1 and V2 flat call, and we're four to a flop with $300 in the pot, and $600-$700 behind.

FLOP ($300) - KcQcQd.

H x. V1 $100. V2 folds. V3 raises to $300.

Hero?

Maybe it's MUBS, but in game, I tanked, unable to conceive a scenario in which I continued and didn't get stacked. I was seriously regretting that what I told V3 about V1's post-flop tendencies, now that I was stuck trying to figure out if V3 could ever be bluffing, or playing a marginal value hand this way.

Weak players that are "waiting" for a big hand to get after a maniac are typically not deviating as much as you think. V3 is likely not 3betting hands like AJo, ATs, or 99 in his spot. He's calling and trying to flop a monster against V1.

Calling AQs pre is violating one of the basic LLSNL tenets : don't pay off nits/overly passive players when they are being uncharacteristically aggressive (ie. Preflop 3bets, turn raises, big river bets, or river raises). Preflop is an easy fold, calling is torching money.

As played, I'm not sure how we don't get all in on flop. Does V3 show up with KK here? Of course, but it's also possibly going to slow play some. Hands like AA/AK, even an AQ we chop with are all fairly possible, and don't even need to show up super often to make up for the times we are near-dead versus KK.

Yeah, easy fold preflop at 1/3. I would fold to almost anyone, but an uber-rock probably has KK/AA. Some people not uber rocks only 3! 1-4 specific hands in 1/3. The cold call is just terrible with reads. In a mid stakes game, it might be reasonable to cold call with AQs.

There are 3 combinations of KK. He is likely to slow play those often, as that hand would be hard to draw out against. However, that he raised the flop is a bad sign, as he might flat call with AA or AK. I guess you got stacked, but I don't see how you can fold.

turbo mega fold pre. Gonna be JJ+ AK all day.

On the flop wtf you obviously wanna GII, V3 never ever gets away from aces here, probably never gets away from AK either, obv he could have KK, if so whatever. These rocks love to complain, you cant complain about aces cracked if you dont get stacked with em.

Curious if anyone ever finds a 4B pre in my spot? I'm guessing not. It crossed my mind in game, but seemed too aggro, and would create less than 1 SPR going to the flop.

Folding pre also crossed my mind, albeit briefly. But in game, I thought it was possible V3 might be 3B'ing a slightly wider range, given that V1 was over-folding to 3B's, and AQs seemed like a hand that was too strong to fold pre-flop.

As I was tanking, I was going through the permutations of possible outcomes for various best-case / worst-case scenarios.

All this went through my head:

If V1 has KQ and V3 has AA/KK, I'm drawing dead. If V1 has JTcc and V3 has AA/AK, I need to fade 14 cards and weird runner-runner BS that makes V3 Broadway. If V1 has JTcc and V3 has KK, I'm dead to 1 out. If V1 folds, I'm ahead of 18 combos of AA/AK, and only losing to 4 combos of KK/KQs, so how could I ever fold? But does V3 really 3B KQs pre, and raise AA/AK now, or is this just always AA/KK/AK pre, and never not KK now?

Is V1 really donking 1/3 pot into the rock who 3B pre, with a hand he's about to fold? What bluffs does he even have here, that donk into three opponents in a 3B pot, other than JTcc? Is V3 really blasting off with AA/AK over V1's donk, when it's possible I could flat pre with some QX combos, and V1 could show up with almost any two cards, definitely including every combo of KQ and a bunch of QX?

Should I just jam? Can a jam ever get called by worse?

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If he's continuing less than 5pct vs 3b, is no one mercilessly 3 betting him from lp? Do we think villain has cottoned on to that, because if he has it seems an easy 4b?

If we don't think he's adjusting it's an easy fold pre.

Trivial preflop fold, imo. The nit finally got a hand to go to war with against the maniac and it is crushing AQs. We can't be putting in 10% of our stack preflop hoping it doesn't get 4bet / we smash a flop.

I probably flat the flop to invite the maniac along and donk shove most turns so it doesn't check thru. I guess also an argument for shoving now on a drawy board (where maniac likely ain't folding a draw).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I'm only 4betting someone who I know is a habitual light 3bet/squeezer. Not a tight ABC rock.

This is a trivial fold pre.

Fold pf

as played call flop.

Yes you should be relentlessly 3 betting any 75%+ open, and even moreso if they fold or call too wide, although I completely dont buy a <5% calling range, just an exaggerated read.

Fold pre, to this kind of bomb from V3, but we already know that.

My big question is: of V3's likely PF range (I'm giving him 3 AA, 3 KK, 2 AKs, 7 AKo, and that's it. Should I also throw in JJ and AQs? I don't think V3 does this pf with AJcc), what part of that is he raising V1 with, while Hero can still act?

Seems suicidal to bluff this with JJ, right? Or even raise 3x with AK/AA into 2 people after this PF action? OTOH, could be, if tilted, V3's way of saying that he has 2p+, and isn't even thinking about Doc who can still act.

9 AK + 3 AA vs 3 KK means we should call. Even eliminating AK, and leaving 3 AA means we should if we think V3 raises that here.

I'm discounting V1 as an aggrofish, who will be stabbing with anything. Might even have levelled himself into calling with some pps given it'd be 60 to call, there are others as well, and they'll still have ~700 back or so.

I'd call here. You beat some of the third guys range. Keep the aggro guy in. You lose this hand, then good for them. Ifyou ran into KK here then it's a huge cooler. V3 easily can have AK or AA here and play this way. He's tight and 3 bet so his range is pretty much AA, AK, KK. 6 combos of aces, 12 combos of AK, 3 combos of KK.

i think pre is a really big error. if you don't think you can 4b as a bluff here because his range is too strong i doubt you can flat profitably. (i would just 4b as a default). post i dont see what the question is, you can't soul read fold in low spr situations. its also reasonably unlikely to me either player would take this line with a full house

H has one of those Aces. But we're not otherwise disagreeing.

Although, I think V1 folds after a H call or shove.

You're asking about V1's 3B continue range. I probably should have been more clear.

Almost no one was 3B'ing at all. I did some light 3B'ing, maybe once an orbit, and he almost always folded. I was lucky to be sitting in the 8 seat while he was in the 4 seat, so most of the time, when I was 3B'ing him, it was from the BTN or the blinds while he was in MP, where I'd either be IP post-flop, or my raise looked stronger because I was OOP and could have just called, closing the action (the old lady to my left had a 0% BB raise frequency).

But I was the only one 3B'ing with any sort of frequency. If anyone else 3B him, it probably looked even stronger, because everyone else at the table was either short-stacked (the two to my direct left), or playing kind of nitty. So when anyone else 3B him, he was even more likely to fold.

In a normal Friday/Saturday game, there would be more 3B'ing, and I expect he would have gone broke sooner. As it happened, most of the table was over-folding to his pre-flop raises or flop c-bets, so I was really the only one playing back at him at all.

I kind of got sucked into the convo about V1 that was going on between the two guys to my right, V3, and the OMC on his right. I shouldn't have said anything, but during this hand, I was thinking that something I said about how I was playing back at V1 and he was over-folding may have inspired V3 to open up his game a bit.

So, pre-flop, I'm wondering if V3 might be opening a hand that would fold if I 4B, but I didn't like the idea of 4B'ing at this stack depth, especially not if V1 was going to call, giving V3 good odds to continue, and forcing me to play post-flop OOP.

On the flop, I'm wondering if V3 might be over-playing AA/KK/AK, or if he's ever concerned I might have QX, and he'd only raise KK/KQ.

I admit I don't like folding AQs. Usually, facing a 3B from a rock, I'd have insta-folded, for the same reasons you're advocating. This felt like a special situation, given the table dynamics. I was reasonably certain there'd be no 4B. V1 just didn't seem to have any 4B range that wasn't AA/K, which my hand blocked, and I seriously doubted he'd jam JJ-QQ over the 3B from V3.

I mean...we did sort of smash the flop, but...yeah, I wasn't loving it when the flop action played out as it did. It definitely felt like a shove or fold spot, but I was very worried that V1 would never fold a good draw, and V3 would only fold worse, including AA/AK. I was semi-sure V3 would understand I wouldn't be jamming as a bluff in this spot, and I'd only be jamming QX+.

Like I said above, no one else was 3B'ing this guy, at least not light, and not very often. I was 3B'ing light about once an orbit, maybe twice an orbit occasionally, but I was trying not to do it too crazy-light. Instead, I was flatting more of his raises pre, and check-raising him very light on flops that he just couldn't possibly smash.

So, it's not like this guy called 3 out of 100 3B's. More like whenever anyone else 3B him, which happened so rarely, he'd over-fold, close to 100%, and if I 3B him once or twice an orbit, he might flat call 1/3 or 1/2 the time.

Yes, I know, fold pre. Seems to be what everyone was saying. I guess I was too loose there.

In game, I was thinking we could widen V3's range beyond AA/KK/AK, to include JJ/QQ, maybe TT or AQs, but that's about it. If V3 was a studied player, he'd have known the correct adjustment would be to flat call wider, and call V1's c-bets wider, but with all the groaning he'd been doing about V1's aggression, I was fairly certain he'd instead just 3B wider and go bigger.

But then there's the flop. I don't think V3's ever raising over the donk without a strong hand,. So, no, he's not doing this with JJ.

In the SB, I could conceivably have gotten involved pre with some speculative hands, but I was thinking V3 would probably be at least a little worried I could show up with QX. So, maybe he's a guy that says, "I'll go down in flames with AA/AK, if that's what happens", or maybe he's a guy who's just never raising worse than KK/KQ for value on the flop.

It's not just me in the SB. Once I call the pre-flop raise, V1 is getting a good price to continue, and his 3B frequency was so low that I thought he could easily show up with every combo of AQ, KQ, QJ, JTs, and that he'd donk out with all of them. I figured V3 had to be thinking someone, me or V1, could easily show up with QX.

So as I'm tanking, all this is going through my head, and to me it looks like AA/AK and JJ are basically all the same, because only KK/KQ or JTcc are going to end up winning this pot when all the money goes in. The only real difference is that V3 isn't going to feel married to JJ in the same way he may not be able to release AA/AK, and would never raise JJ, whereas he might rage-raise AA/AK over V1's donk.

TL; DR - I wasn't at all convinced V3 would play AA/AK this way.

Yes, I did the combo work in my head. The math checks out.

But, there's no calling here. There just isn't. It's fold or jam, at this stack depth and SPR. I can't call off another $300 with only $400 left behind.

Even if I did flat call, I was expecting V1 to fold every combo that wasn't KQ, QX, or JTcc. With three of the Q's accounted for, and guessing he might get trappy and check with KQ/QX, I was putting him squarely on JTcc if he continued. I wasn't sure he'd fold any QX if I jammed, but I was pretty sure he'd never fold JTcc.

I mean, why would he fold? I only had $700 left. He only had about $600 left. Who folds trips or an OESFD for $600 more after putting $175 into a pot that has ballooned to $1400, with two cards to come?

He'd be getting 2.33 to 1 pot odds, and 3.33 to 1 implied odds if V3 also called my jam. There was also a $250 overlay from the high-hand promotion running, and Q's full is enough to qualify. No one folds an OESFD there, and very few aggro-fish are going to fold QX.

Even if we think V1 is REALLY loose, he'd have to be insane to continue with any hand that couldn't improve to a flush, or at least a straight, and he'd have to be pretty stoopid to chase a draw on this paired board, in a 3B pot, facing a raise from V3 over his donk-bet, and me calling from the SB. He's not coming along with JJ or some whack inside straight draw.

So his continue range is basically flopped boats, flopped trips, OESFD's, and MAYBE if he's really dumb, some NFD's, and OESD's.

I can't flat call $300, and fold $400 on the turn if it's a 9 or a club and V1 jams. Even if an ace comes - yeah, I make bottom boat, but I'm still losing to V3's combos of AA and KK. If a K comes, I lose to any KX. There are 20 cards that could ruin me, and damned few if any I can ever fold on.

Even if I flat call and it's a brick run-out, how can I ever be ahead if either V is willing to get stacks in with me, unless MAYBE V1 has lost his mind with QJ?

Calling just wasn't an option. I could jam and pray they both fold, or that one or both call with worse and my hand holds up, or I could fold.

lol 4! AQs at 1/3. At 5/10, etc. probably a decision whether to 4!, call, or fold. At 1/3 maybe only 4! AA/KK without reads. Only AA against some players.

I dont think 4bet pre is good. To think the nit is opening up his game after your conversation is possible but its not super likely. I would refrain from giving anybody pointers in the future though.

Having got here this way I dont see how you can possibly fold. V1 who knows what hes doing, he can have all kinds of worse Qx or Kx than you and V3 can easily think well I have AK I have him outkicked and hes too aggressive, or he can easily have AA. I think folding this would be insane. We're deep but not crazy deep. Ive seen plenty of otherwise nitty rockish players go crazy with some way overplayed hand in situations like this before because they are frustrated and just decide to take a stand. He's probably not even worried about you, hes just thinking he doesnt believe the aggro guy and if he loses w aces its a bad beat and he doesnt have to feel bad about it.

I hate folding AQs pre, it physically pains me but I think this is one of those times.

So, in game, I didn't think V3 would ever be raising without KK or KQ, and I wasn't even sure KQ would be in his pre-flop 3B range, so I was putting him squarely on KK. It just didn't make sense to me, that he might raise AA or AK, when anyone could have QX.

Since I had AQ and I was putting V3 on KK, and I didn't think V1 would show up and donk lead with the last remaining combo of KQ, the only hand I could put him on was JTcc, or maybe some insane air-ball.

Couldn't understand why V1 would donk the flop with anything else. But it felt like I was drawing dead to 1 out, so his donk probably saved me a bunch of money.

I folded. V1 folded. V3 scooped, and didn't show. He picked up a few minutes later, so I didn't get the chance to talk to him, but I caught up with him a few weeks later, and asked him what he had...

The fact you made this soulread fold you're inexplicably bragging about, makes your pre-flop call even worse. If you really want to fold here, then the chances of him having anything else than AA/KK when he 3bets pre are zero. You suspect some OMC type rock to maybe open up his game because of some sort of advice you gave him, but then on the flop he suddenly turned back into an OMC who only raises with the supernuts. I think your thought process is kind of a mess. You're trying to have it both ways and you're justifying your own decisions with arguments that contradict themselves. Pre-flop: "he could be opening up his game because I advised him to do that (you also tend to give yourself way too much credit for things like this imo) or because V1 annoyed him into it, so I call or possibly even 4bet." Flop: "he's the world's tightest OMC, I fold."

I know a couple of OMC types who literally only have AA or KK here and they would typically raise/get in both on this flop. They waited all night for aces. When they eventually get them, they are instantly married to their hand and basically only think: "I have AA, I'm gonna raise because I don't want them to hit a flush! A king isn’t gonna fold and if they have a Q, it's a cooler, nothing you can do about it!"

This is just thinking like a fish.

I know AQs can look so pretty at times, especially if you've been card dead it can look like a Christmas Tree but vs a range that crushes it (like when a tight player 3bets you), you just have to let it go sometimes.

You left out the part where I said this felt like a special situation.

Yeah the table talk is just terrible and indicative of one OP's leaks which is playing for ego. He wants/needs people to know how good he is at the table.
Kind of the same reason this hand was posted

idk if I believe villain saying he had KK. I guess it makes you feel good about your fold so you're incentivized to believe it.

I mean I lie all the time to people saying I had the nuts when they ask me if I had it. Who's to say this guy is any different? It's poker Phil.

I always lie too. I would for sure say I had KK here if I actually had aces and knew I way overplayed it, especially especially if hero told me he folded AQ.

People make comments about me being super tight at the table all time. Im actually not at all, they are just crazy loose. Everytime i 3bet they think I have AA, but in reality I 3bet a correctly aggressive range including suited connectors in later positions, etc. So when I bluff someone and they say you had kings or aces I agree of course so they feel good about their fold.

Awesome to have my psyche analyzed for free by anonymous internet experts. Thanks guys! I look forward to seeing the hands you guys post, when you always seem to weigh in after the reveal, just to throw shade.

Setting aside erroneous assumptions about my motivations...

My circle of player friends was split on what to do pre-flop. Some said fold, one or two said 4B-fold, most said flat call and see a flop, but most of my player friends are younger and aggro, so I wanted to see what people here would say.

The variables which split my friends were whether or not my read on V3 was accurate, whether or not he might be tilted after all his complaining about V1, and whether or not the risk of being OOP to V3 was worth taking to get involved in the pot with V1, who had already shown his willingness to stack off light. Most said it was worth a call just to see if we might smash the flop and get heads up with V1.

Post-flop, almost everyone initially said I had to call and just go broke if that's how it worked out. But through argument and debate, a few were persuaded that my fold was correct, and really he could only have KK, or maybe KQ, and that if V1 stayed in I could be drawing close to dead or completely dead. Some of the guys in my circle are very rigid about playing ranges, and not adjusting for reads.

As for V's claim of KK - we'd never played together before, and haven't played together since. He's not a reg. It was weeks later when I caught up to him, as he was seated at another table, and I had to remind him of the details of the hand.

Sure, maybe after being reminded of the hand, he decided on the spot to lie and say he had KK when he actually had AA/AK, but that seems pretty unlikely, given that he didn't stand to gain anything immediately, if ever, and his claim aligns with our reads and logic.

If he was going to lie about what he had, wouldn't he be more likely to want to make me think I made a BAD fold, not a GOOD fold? I mean...he didn't know I had AQ until after he said KK. And he didn't put me on QX until after he raised, and I went into the tank. He could have said AA or AK, and not be worried that it somehow makes him look fishy.

If he really wanted to mess with my head, he could have said JJ. I'd have been tilted the rest of the night.

Everyone here is saying it's just a fold pre when V3 puts in the 3B. That's fine, and usually, I'd have folded. I saw the potential of $150 in dead money going in behind me, and the IO of stacking V1, and figured my hand was strong enough to call off the $75, just 10% of my stack. I'm going to be able to continue on a lot of flops, with a fairly disguised hand, and felt I had a skill edge on the other three players.

But as played, I just don't see how AQ could ever be good when V1 donks into three opponents, and V3 raises enough to pot commit himself if V1 jams. Calling or jamming flop after this action would have just been compounding the mistake I made by flatting pre.

I wasn't bragging. That hand got stuck in my head. I spent weeks wondering if I made the right decision, leading me to also question if I was playing correctly during that time. Having him tell me he had KK didn't feel like vindication, because many of my friends said even if he did have KK, it was still a bad fold. It was just a relief to know I wasn't out of my mind for folding, and that my reasoning turned out to be sound.