Quote:
Originally Posted by hitchens97
If he's continuing less than 5pct vs 3b, is no one mercilessly 3 betting him from lp? Do we think villain has cottoned on to that, because if he has it seems an easy 4b?
If we don't think he's adjusting it's an easy fold pre.
You're asking about V1's 3B continue range. I probably should have been more clear.
Almost no one was 3B'ing at all. I did some light 3B'ing, maybe once an orbit, and he almost always folded. I was lucky to be sitting in the 8 seat while he was in the 4 seat, so most of the time, when I was 3B'ing him, it was from the BTN or the blinds while he was in MP, where I'd either be IP post-flop, or my raise looked stronger because I was OOP and could have just called, closing the action (the old lady to my left had a 0% BB raise frequency).
But I was the only one 3B'ing with any sort of frequency. If anyone else 3B him, it probably looked even stronger, because everyone else at the table was either short-stacked (the two to my direct left), or playing kind of nitty. So when anyone else 3B him, he was even more likely to fold.
In a normal Friday/Saturday game, there would be more 3B'ing, and I expect he would have gone broke sooner. As it happened, most of the table was over-folding to his pre-flop raises or flop c-bets, so I was really the only one playing back at him at all.
I kind of got sucked into the convo about V1 that was going on between the two guys to my right, V3, and the OMC on his right. I shouldn't have said anything, but during this hand, I was thinking that something I said about how I was playing back at V1 and he was over-folding may have inspired V3 to open up his game a bit.
So, pre-flop, I'm wondering if V3 might be opening a hand that would fold if I 4B, but I didn't like the idea of 4B'ing at this stack depth, especially not if V1 was going to call, giving V3 good odds to continue, and forcing me to play post-flop OOP.
On the flop, I'm wondering if V3 might be over-playing AA/KK/AK, or if he's ever concerned I might have QX, and he'd only raise KK/KQ.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek
Trivial preflop fold, imo. The nit finally got a hand to go to war with against the maniac and it is crushing AQs. We can't be putting in 10% of our stack preflop hoping it doesn't get 4bet / we smash a flop.
I probably flat the flop to invite the maniac along and donk shove most turns so it doesn't check thru. I guess also an argument for shoving now on a drawy board (where maniac likely ain't folding a draw).
GcluelessNLnoobG
I admit I don't like folding AQs. Usually, facing a 3B from a rock, I'd have insta-folded, for the same reasons you're advocating. This felt like a special situation, given the table dynamics. I was reasonably certain there'd be no 4B. V1 just didn't seem to have any 4B range that wasn't AA/K, which my hand blocked, and I seriously doubted he'd jam JJ-QQ over the 3B from V3.
I mean...we did sort of smash the flop, but...yeah, I wasn't loving it when the flop action played out as it did. It definitely felt like a shove or fold spot, but I was very worried that V1 would never fold a good draw, and V3 would only fold worse, including AA/AK. I was semi-sure V3 would understand I wouldn't be jamming as a bluff in this spot, and I'd only be jamming QX+.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomark
Yes you should be relentlessly 3 betting any 75%+ open, and even moreso if they fold or call too wide, although I completely dont buy a <5% calling range, just an exaggerated read.
Like I said above, no one else was 3B'ing this guy, at least not light, and not very often. I was 3B'ing light about once an orbit, maybe twice an orbit occasionally, but I was trying not to do it too crazy-light. Instead, I was flatting more of his raises pre, and check-raising him very light on flops that he just couldn't possibly smash.
So, it's not like this guy called 3 out of 100 3B's. More like whenever anyone else 3B him, which happened so rarely, he'd over-fold, close to 100%, and if I 3B him once or twice an orbit, he might flat call 1/3 or 1/2 the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nh,gg.
Fold pre, to this kind of bomb from V3, but we already know that.
My big question is: of V3's likely PF range (I'm giving him 3 AA, 3 KK, 2 AKs, 7 AKo, and that's it. Should I also throw in JJ and AQs? I don't think V3 does this pf with AJcc), what part of that is he raising V1 with, while Hero can still act?
Seems suicidal to bluff this with JJ, right? Or even raise 3x with AK/AA into 2 people after this PF action? OTOH, could be, if tilted, V3's way of saying that he has 2p+, and isn't even thinking about Doc who can still act.
9 AK + 3 AA vs 3 KK means we should call. Even eliminating AK, and leaving 3 AA means we should if we think V3 raises that here.
I'm discounting V1 as an aggrofish, who will be stabbing with anything. Might even have levelled himself into calling with some pps given it'd be 60 to call, there are others as well, and they'll still have ~700 back or so.
Yes, I know, fold pre. Seems to be what everyone was saying. I guess I was too loose there.
In game, I was thinking we could widen V3's range beyond AA/KK/AK, to include JJ/QQ, maybe TT or AQs, but that's about it. If V3 was a studied player, he'd have known the correct adjustment would be to flat call wider, and call V1's c-bets wider, but with all the groaning he'd been doing about V1's aggression, I was fairly certain he'd instead just 3B wider and go bigger.
But then there's the flop. I don't think V3's ever raising over the donk without a strong hand,. So, no, he's not doing this with JJ.
In the SB, I could conceivably have gotten involved pre with some speculative hands, but I was thinking V3 would probably be at least a little worried I could show up with QX. So, maybe he's a guy that says, "I'll go down in flames with AA/AK, if that's what happens", or maybe he's a guy who's just never raising worse than KK/KQ for value on the flop.
It's not just me in the SB. Once I call the pre-flop raise, V1 is getting a good price to continue, and his 3B frequency was so low that I thought he could easily show up with every combo of AQ, KQ, QJ, JTs, and that he'd donk out with all of them. I figured V3 had to be thinking someone, me or V1, could easily show up with QX.
So as I'm tanking, all this is going through my head, and to me it looks like AA/AK and JJ are basically all the same, because only KK/KQ or JTcc are going to end up winning this pot when all the money goes in. The only real difference is that V3 isn't going to feel married to JJ in the same way he may not be able to release AA/AK, and would never raise JJ, whereas he might rage-raise AA/AK over V1's donk.
TL; DR - I wasn't at all convinced V3 would play AA/AK this way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 009285832
I'd call here. You beat some of the third guys range. Keep the aggro guy in. You lose this hand, then good for them. Ifyou ran into KK here then it's a huge cooler. V3 easily can have AK or AA here and play this way. He's tight and 3 bet so his range is pretty much AA, AK, KK. 6 combos of aces, 12 combos of AK, 3 combos of KK.
Yes, I did the combo work in my head. The math checks out.
But, there's no calling here. There just isn't. It's fold or jam, at this stack depth and SPR. I can't call off another $300 with only $400 left behind.
Even if I did flat call, I was expecting V1 to fold every combo that wasn't KQ, QX, or JTcc. With three of the Q's accounted for, and guessing he might get trappy and check with KQ/QX, I was putting him squarely on JTcc if he continued. I wasn't sure he'd fold any QX if I jammed, but I was pretty sure he'd never fold JTcc.
I mean, why would he fold? I only had $700 left. He only had about $600 left. Who folds trips or an OESFD for $600 more after putting $175 into a pot that has ballooned to $1400, with two cards to come?
He'd be getting 2.33 to 1 pot odds, and 3.33 to 1 implied odds if V3 also called my jam. There was also a $250 overlay from the high-hand promotion running, and Q's full is enough to qualify. No one folds an OESFD there, and very few aggro-fish are going to fold QX.
Even if we think V1 is REALLY loose, he'd have to be insane to continue with any hand that couldn't improve to a flush, or at least a straight, and he'd have to be pretty stoopid to chase a draw on this paired board, in a 3B pot, facing a raise from V3 over his donk-bet, and me calling from the SB. He's not coming along with JJ or some whack inside straight draw.
So his continue range is basically flopped boats, flopped trips, OESFD's, and MAYBE if he's really dumb, some NFD's, and OESD's.
I can't flat call $300, and fold $400 on the turn if it's a 9 or a club and V1 jams. Even if an ace comes - yeah, I make bottom boat, but I'm still losing to V3's combos of AA and KK. If a K comes, I lose to any KX. There are 20 cards that could ruin me, and damned few if any I can ever fold on.
Even if I flat call and it's a brick run-out, how can I ever be ahead if either V is willing to get stacks in with me, unless MAYBE V1 has lost his mind with QJ?
Calling just wasn't an option. I could jam and pray they both fold, or that one or both call with worse and my hand holds up, or I could fold.