i'm not sure if this has been asked before but i think its a pretty interesting hypothetical situation. My question is what do the conditions have to be before its +EV to complete in the sb with ATC? if everyone limps and is 250bbs deep and there are a few droolers its got to be +EV right?

But in 1/2 NL I am relatively often getting upwards of 1:10 odds when SB. Isn't that enough for me to be calling with most hands? Not necessarily ATC but maybe 2/3 of my hands.

The problem with the small blind is you are playing from the worst possition possible while playing many hands with serious RIO problems. Even though other players at the table might be weak, if you give them possition and better starting cards you should expect to lose money.

The cheap price for playing the small blind is an illusion. Its only a chip or two with 'great' pot odds - but you'll find garbage hands have about as much equity as the pot odds you get. Plus its hard to cash in on those hands where bottom pair good kicker (or top pair no kicker) are beating the other four hands because you'll be value-towning yourself on all the other times someone else crushes bottom pair. Soon enough you find that it not a chip or two you spend completing the small blind that hurts, its 10bb - 40bb lost while you figure out that your 'little bit' of the flop is not enough to win.

Possition problems are magnified with deep stacks. Sure, bad players are even more tempting targets when there is lots of money on the table but the small blind is not the place to go hunting for a big pot. Let's not forget that some of the players at the table are likely to be competent, occationally better than you. People who commonly limp from the small blind are good targets for the sharks even if they generally get respect. Bad possition + weak cards amplifies your risk vs the better people in the game.

All in all its a bad deal. The cheap price to complete the small blind matches the equity of garbage hands so its no great bargin preflop and then you have three more streets playing bad cards out of possition.

My rule of thumb for the small blind is that I am a little tighter there than from the button. Yes, that means I fold the small blind a lot but it also means I avoid a lot of trouble.

Just say no -=- DrStrange

In some games you can profitably limp the button with any two cards. I used to be +EV doing that playing 10NL online some years ago. If you have several mouthbreathers at the table you can beat them to death with your position and your hand hardly matters.

The small blind, no. Being out of position, especially in a multiway pot, is a gargantuan disadvantage.

Loads of thread on this. One in poker theory at the moment, I think.

There is also this in MSNL where Vinivici hots the nail on the head.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/11...12/index2.html

flopping 2P is something like 45:1.
I absolutely agree with the field on this one. Fold all but your premium hands for reasons already voiced.

Most LLSNL players will limp in the SB if it is limped to them getting 10:1 odds. Most LLSNL players are losing players. I don't think it is a coincidence.

It also come dow in my mind is that those who justify it state, "I'm getting great odds, how can I fold" vs. "wow, I make kick ass money limping/playing in the SB."

Well that's an awesome thing to know !! easy plug !

Just to clarify we fold hands like JQs in the small blind with say 8 callers ?

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

canoodles, don't feed the troll.

I WAS NOT TROLLING !!!

Whoever originally made up the rules for poker is a genius for allowing everyone to fall into the SB discount trap. I still play ultra-tight from the SB. I'd much, much, rather pay twice the price to play a garbage hand from the button. I don't care how cheap it is or that I'm getting 10:1.

When you limp in with complete trash hands, let's say 92o, what kind of flop, exactly, are you hoping for? 992? Keep dreaming. Really, you're only going to be happy if you flop two pair or better. That happens way less often than 1/11 of the time.

In the event that you flop a weak hand that also happens to be the best hand, you'll either get bluffed off it by someone who has position on you or not get value because everyone else has complete air.

You have little opportunity to steal the pot with air it's against multiple opponents. The cutoff or button will do that in the event that everyone flops nothing. Thus, the only time you can win anything with garbage hands is if you hit the flop hard and someone else also happens to have a decent hand.

When you complete the small blind with nine-deuce and get a 992 flop, congratulations, you win all those limps. No one else has anything and your lead on the flop will usually be met with a round of turbo-folds.

+9582934865943285658952605972475432

I want to add something here--when you're first to act among three or more players on the flop, that's one scenario (they are rare) where you should check a flopped full house. It will check through 90% of the time, and (a) your turn bet will look more like a stab, and (b) hopefully one or more of your opponents will pick up something they're willing to lose two bets on on the turn.

It all depends on what is ATC in your vocabulary. If its ASC, ASG, AOC, any pair and broadway then i say go ahead and limp when getting great odds. All unplayable hands should be tossed.