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Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot

01-14-2015 , 02:56 PM
Hero sat down less than one orbit ago and looks at AQ in MP. H chooses to limp, given he is almost readless, not in great position, and with a not super-strong hand. Limps / folds to B (Villain) who raises to 10. Folds to H who calls, folds back to button.

I don't have any real info on this V, other than he seems to play a little loose PF and I think a button raise could be a lot of things. Not sure though and looking to take a relatively cheap flop and win a medium pot, unless I hit hard.

F: 987 rainbow, one diamond. I check and V checks back.

T: 4 With a backdoor flush draw out there, I think I'm in decent shape, especially if he has something like AK, QT, KT, KQ, other broadway cards, or a smaller PP. I figure turn card doesn't help V (barring 44). I elect to check and V bets 10. Quickly, I 3bet to 30. My thinking here is that I can maybe fold out medium-strength hands, like SDs, AK, KQ, maybe even smaller overpairs (although that's less likely with the SD there as well). Was this spewy? Should I have flatted? Or led? V calls relatively quickly.

R: A At this point I think I have the best hand, thinking V shows up with a busted draw / combo draw / A10 or AJ a bunch of the time. I quickly check, ready to snap off a R bluff or just take a cheap showdown. V fires out 50. Hero???

This feels like he's betting a missed draw. I can't discount a rivered 2-pair, but I'm not sure he'd call a turn raise with something as marginal as A8 or a 9. Absent reads, maybe I should have just taken a flop and then c/f or c/c (once the diamond hit) without trying to get creative OOP. Thoughts on all streets appreciated!
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-14-2015 , 03:18 PM
In what world is AQs not a super-strong hand? Raise here.

JT is in his preflop range for sure, as is 77,88,99, and he woulda raised on the button with any of those hands. Flop and turn are okay, but I'm out by the river when I miss the flush. You're the one with the busted draw, not him.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-14-2015 , 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DormantShark
R: A At this point I think I have the best hand, thinking V shows up with a busted draw / combo draw / A10 or AJ a bunch of the time. I quickly check, ready to snap off a R bluff or just take a cheap showdown. V fires out 50. Hero???
You have a plan for your hand and now you're questioning what to do now you've made a hand?

I don't understand what you're asking here.

Also, if you limp from MP and V is in SB, how are you checking to him? Is the villain on the button?

I'm not following the action at all. Sorry bruh.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-14-2015 , 03:58 PM
Your thinking is very flawed in multiple ways. At least you're trying to think about your actions though. You need to raise pre for value.

Your turn x/r won't get any of his hands to fold that you are beating and no worse are calling.

River Is actually pretty close and I fold sometimes vs certain villains but call most of the time
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-14-2015 , 04:15 PM
You checked the river to "snap off a river bluff". So isn't this situation exactly what you were hoping for? I don't understand what you're trying to represent with the check raise. The turn card doesn't vastly improve any hand except 44, and no strong hand on the flop would check twice in his mind. A strange thing about this hand is by playing it the way you did, there's no way the villain could put you on a strong ace. That being said this hand feels like he flopped something great and is way ahead of you.

So, preflop I would raise, flop I would check, turn I would call, river I would blocker bet/fold. I really hope you called though, not because I think it's the right decision, but because creating a plan for the hand and not following through with it is bad news. I suspect that you did quickly call though and he showed you something like j10 which led to this thread.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-14-2015 , 04:37 PM
PF, no reads so no rationale for open limping here.

Flop is fine.

OTT we should lead to rep a 2-pair or JT line. V won't credit an x/r for JT or 2-pair since these hands wouldn't risk a free river w/ this board.

Fold river. Board is scary so it's unlikely V is value betting anything AQ beats here. Perhaps you can catch a bluff, but it's unlikely a bluff because V isn't worried about another x/r.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-14-2015 , 04:44 PM
PF, no reads so no rationale for open limping here.

Flop is fine.

OTT we should lead to rep a 2-pair or JT line. V won't credit an x/r for JT or 2-pair since these hands wouldn't risk a free river w/ this board.

Fold river. Board is scary so it's unlikely V is value betting anything AQ beats here. Perhaps you can catch a bluff, but it's unlikely a bluff because V isn't worried about another x/r.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-14-2015 , 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boonwatt

Fold river. Board is scary so it's unlikely V is value betting anything AQ beats here. Perhaps you can catch a bluff, but it's unlikely a bluff because V isn't worried about another x/r.
As a general rule, you can assume most low stakes players won't bluff on the river. I agree with this guy.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-14-2015 , 06:16 PM
Call call call call call.

Raise preflop. You're opening in middle position, AQs is plenty strong. Raising helps you avoid the weird guessing game you've now gotten yourself into.

Flop is fine.

Turn is wtf?!?!? It's a massively draw-heavy board. You've got a nice backdoor draw to the nuts, which offers good-not-great implied odds. Your opponent could have slowplayed a monster (j10) on the flop though. And if your opponent has a pocket pair or any draw, he isn't folding against this wimpy raise. Either raise large or don't raise. In this case, don't raise.

River is either a bet-fold or a check-call. It isn't a check-fold. Villain can easily have A10 or AJ here. Villain probably doesn't have A9, A8, or A7, because he'd be crazy not to bet those hands on the flop with position against a single unknown opponent.

While I agree with ^ that V is unlikely to be bluffing here, it's entirely possible for V to think his weaker ace is good in this spot. AK beats you, and two pair beats you. All other Ax's lose to you. And after the nonsense betting line you've taken on the turn, he likely believes you're afraid of that ace.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-14-2015 , 06:54 PM
Raise pre.

Flop okay.
Turn: Just call
River: Bet/fold

AQ suited is a strong hand btw.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-14-2015 , 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierradave
While I agree with ^ that V is unlikely to be bluffing here, it's entirely possible for V to think his weaker ace is good in this spot. AK beats you, and two pair beats you. All other Ax's lose to you. And after the nonsense betting line you've taken on the turn, he likely believes you're afraid of that ace.
First, it's unlikely V called the x/r OTT on this board with ace high in a live 1/2. More likely he's calling with something like tptk or the idiot end of the straight. The nut straight probably 3bets to avoid chopping or getting flushed.

Next, assuming V somehow does have only an ace, he won't vbet the ace, even AK, in this spot. Given hero's line what hand could he possibly put hero on that will pay him off? V is checking all aces here. EDIT: except aces up, obv
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-14-2015 , 10:59 PM
You need to raise pre for value with hands that could flop the nuts: (pp, AXs). So, raise and hope to get called. You want to play big pots when you have a chance to flop the nuts. That's why you raise pre and that's why you hope to get called.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-15-2015 , 12:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by boonwatt
First, it's unlikely V called the x/r OTT on this board with ace high in a live 1/2. More likely he's calling with something like tptk or the idiot end of the straight. The nut straight probably 3bets to avoid chopping or getting flushed.

Next, assuming V somehow does have only an ace, he won't vbet the ace, even AK, in this spot. Given hero's line what hand could he possibly put hero on that will pay him off? V is checking all aces here. EDIT: except aces up, obv
I would agree with you if Hero had put in a real check-raise on the turn. But his check-raise was so small that it just looks fishy as hell. (Which, incidentally, it is.)
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-15-2015 , 01:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierradave
I would agree with you if Hero had put in a real check-raise on the turn. But his check-raise was so small that it just looks fishy as hell. (Which, incidentally, it is.)
The standard 1/2 game just isn't going to have a V flat-calling even a "fishy" turn x/r with ace high on a straightened flushing board from an unknown who open-limp-called PF. MAYBE raising it, but never flatting. And even if V does somehow do this, once he hits an ace OTR he has showdown value and should only be checking, as he will only get called (or potentially x/r'ed again) by a better hand.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-15-2015 , 11:55 AM
Thanks for the feedback.

Seems like general consensus is that turn play was bad and I should have 3! pre. OTT (if you raise) how much do you raise to? I think flatting is probably best though, as we can hammer if the flush draw comes, c/f bricks and c/c the river that we got.

Spoiler:
I called and V showed 99 for the flopped set.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-15-2015 , 12:17 PM
After looking at spoilers, only player who played this hand worse than you was V.

You've heard it before, but raise pre, c/c turn, b/f river.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-15-2015 , 01:06 PM
yeah, a flopped set isn't in his range once he checks the flop. I don't care if he did, in fact, flop a set. It STILL isn't in his range.

Time to initiate the paperwork: we're going to have to remove this V from poker.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-15-2015 , 01:15 PM
While reading I was thinking overpair the whole time, but then the River bet doesn't make any sense. It could be he is just putting a flyer out there thinking you arent calling a bet anyway unless he can make you think hes bluffing. It could be he has you on Ax and has 2 pair/strt/set as well. That actually makes a better story here with this River bet.

Most who raise the Turn OOP will lead on River .. that didn't happen. So V has to assume you didn't improve .. unless Ace. So he really 'shouldn't' be doing this with less than AK or any 4, 3 or 5 card hand. With you being an unknown I would put the bluffs at a minimum unless he is just a spaz who missed with 9T and thinks he can big bet you off a naked Ace. He could have AT also ..

PF is Hero dependent .. but 3-betting here couldve helped you with his range. Not sure on this run out you save chips though since you would c/c Flop and c/f Turn or maybe c/c River if Turn is checked through.

Turn c/r is a bit weak and 'somewhat' obv. The only thing that changed on the board was adding a flush draw, so you are telling him what? Raising more would allow you to c/f River IMO. When I c/r weak I almost always want to lead out on the next street to keep the pressure on the V. If I c/r large I can c/f the next street if I miss since I applied pretty good pressure by raising large. So take that for ???

Im pretty sure you're beat here most of the time, but there's no shame in calling either. There are way more 2pr/set/strt/AK cards out there than AQ/AJ/AT/bluffs IMO. GL
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote
01-15-2015 , 06:56 PM
Raise pre.
check flop is fine.
lead turn.
As played, river could go either way. Your check/raise on the turn, and checking river doesn't represent much, other than a busted draw which gave up.
But he might check behind is one pair hands, and be afraid of a check raise again, without a pretty strong hand. So absent reads, I might give him credit for a better hand here.
Probably a fold.
Rivered top pair with AQ, weird spot Quote

      
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